Diego Carlos

dcye

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I wonder if the Koulibaly talks have slowed because Garcia is leaving, that would certainly change the profile of the center back we want, now I think we would go after a younger player with more room to grow if Garcia is leaving.
We are both still in the Champions League with massive ties coming this weekend. Nothing is going to be announced with such important matches on the horizon. I wouldn't expect any movement other than typical made-up bollocks in the papers until after both of the sides have concluded their seasons.
 

CenturyClub

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Yes comparing stats don't tell the whole story. How teams play is another factor. How much possession they play with, compared to how much defending they do. Likewise with the opponent. Does the opposition sit back and defend deep or press high?

A comparable example would be our recent games against Liverpool and Bournemouth. Garcia and Laporte played against Liverpool and Ota and Stones against Bournemouth. Both teams press us high up the pitch.

We know Liverpool is one of the best pressing teams. Laporte and Garcia did give away the ball on a few occasions yes, but they also were instrumental in playing out from the back to put us in advanced positions to score.

Against Bournemouth who you wouldn't think are a pressing team, Ota and Stones were unable to help advance the ball forward. They couldn't play the ball quickly and find the midfielders or wingers. Consequently they played back to Ederson who had to boot it long giving away possession. Bournemouth also played the long ball where they had the likes of Stanislas, King, Solanke and Billing all up top winning the duels in the air. You would have thought Ota and Stones 2 of our better defenders in the air would be able to handle it but they couldn't. To which we were under so much pressure and looked like we didn't have control of that game.

Against teams that sit back and don't press you have a different story. You have to able to defend, but equally if you aren't able to also play the ball with your feet you compound your own problems having to defend more in our system.
Hi Everyone, this will be my first post on here...

I agree with your point here Larry. Stats do not tell the full story and can be manipulated depending on the team that specific player plays for.

Looking at those stats, Stones looks like one of the best defenders on the list, but there are so many factors to take into account...

1) Stats do not pick up what defenders do off the ball (i.e. lapses in concentration, letting their markers run clear)
2) Not closing down the attackers when taking a shot. I have seen Stones on numerous occasions back off and back off giving the forward players so much time to take a shot.
3) Generally the defenders playing for clubs with the least amount of possession have the most blocked shots, most tackles, most defensive duals because they are having to defend a lot more.

The Bournemouth game was one game that stuck in my mind regarding Stones. He switched off at a crucial time and was caught ball watching letting his marker run clear of him.

I do like Stones and i still feel that there is a top player there, but he just isn't reliable at this moment in time. He does seem like he is in a very fragile state of mind, he seems scared of his own shadow at the moment. I do think Pep has already made his mind up on him which is why we are signing Nathan Ake and looking at signing another defender (Koulibaly the top priority).

Nathan Ake might not be as technically gifted as Stones and might not have as much potential, but he seems more strong willed than Stones. He is more commanding and more of a captain figure which is exactly what we need at this club. Ake seems the type of defender who doesn't let anything get to him, whereas Stones is the complete opposite. He is a confidence player and he needs the love from the fans, the manager and the team to get the best out of him.

At this moment in time, we need reliability and the one thing that stands out about Ake in comparison to Stones and Otamendi is that he is very good 1 v 1 with an attacker, he rarely gets dribbled past or outpaced. We play such a high line that Ake's recovery speed could be crucial for us. Plenty of times teams have counter attacked against us in 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 situations and we have been left with Stones and Otamendi at the back being run at. I would be far more confident having Koulibaly and Ake due to recovery speed in those situations than i would Stones and Otamendi. Otamendi especially doesn't fill anyone with any confidence in 1v1 situations, always ends up selling himself and going to ground.
 

shroom

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29 Oct 2009
Messages
486
Pau Torres has popped up again in the trade rumors ... here's a match between Sevilla and Villarreal featuring DC on one side and Pau Torres on the other ...
suggest putting the speed at 1.5 since all you're watching is 2 players' actions
 

Otamendi's Beard

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Pau Torres has popped up again in the trade rumors ... here's a match between Sevilla and Villarreal featuring DC on one side and Pau Torres on the other ...
suggest putting the speed at 1.5 since all you're watching is 2 players' actions
He looks decent and is one of La Liga's fastest players (according to data shared on here the other day).

But would we really be in for another left footed centre back?
 

Larry Stranger

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28 Mar 2014
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969
Hi Everyone, this will be my first post on here...

I agree with your point here Larry. Stats do not tell the full story and can be manipulated depending on the team that specific player plays for.

Looking at those stats, Stones looks like one of the best defenders on the list, but there are so many factors to take into account...

1) Stats do not pick up what defenders do off the ball (i.e. lapses in concentration, letting their markers run clear)
2) Not closing down the attackers when taking a shot. I have seen Stones on numerous occasions back off and back off giving the forward players so much time to take a shot.
3) Generally the defenders playing for clubs with the least amount of possession have the most blocked shots, most tackles, most defensive duals because they are having to defend a lot more.

The Bournemouth game was one game that stuck in my mind regarding Stones. He switched off at a crucial time and was caught ball watching letting his marker run clear of him.

I do like Stones and i still feel that there is a top player there, but he just isn't reliable at this moment in time. He does seem like he is in a very fragile state of mind, he seems scared of his own shadow at the moment. I do think Pep has already made his mind up on him which is why we are signing Nathan Ake and looking at signing another defender (Koulibaly the top priority).

Nathan Ake might not be as technically gifted as Stones and might not have as much potential, but he seems more strong willed than Stones. He is more commanding and more of a captain figure which is exactly what we need at this club. Ake seems the type of defender who doesn't let anything get to him, whereas Stones is the complete opposite. He is a confidence player and he needs the love from the fans, the manager and the team to get the best out of him.

At this moment in time, we need reliability and the one thing that stands out about Ake in comparison to Stones and Otamendi is that he is very good 1 v 1 with an attacker, he rarely gets dribbled past or outpaced. We play such a high line that Ake's recovery speed could be crucial for us. Plenty of times teams have counter attacked against us in 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 situations and we have been left with Stones and Otamendi at the back being run at. I would be far more confident having Koulibaly and Ake due to recovery speed in those situations than i would Stones and Otamendi. Otamendi especially doesn't fill anyone with any confidence in 1v1 situations, always ends up selling himself and going to ground.
Another reason why stats aren't the true story and it's only an example, but if Laporte and Garcia played in 1 game and if you replayed it against the same opponent and Stones and Otamendi were to play.

If Laporte and Garcia were able to play against the press well and advance the ball in the opposition half and dominate possession, then only conceded 2 aerial duels and won 1 and lost 1, then you are 50% at aerial duels. Then if Otamendi and Stones were poor in advancing the ball, then consequently had to face 10 aerial duels. Even if they won 7 out of 10 which is 70% you really don't want that action to happen that many times. Also what happens even if they win the duel? It means nothing if the opposition were to gain possession after that.

On the other side playing out of the back, if Stones and Otamendi are only able to play to the full backs, who plays it back to them, then they play it to Ederson, who has to boot it because he's under pressure then Stones and Otamendi have a 100% pass rating. If Laporte and Garcia take more chances playing into midfield or up to the winger and give it away on occasion, but are successful 7 out of 10 times they would have a pass rating of 70%.

I'm not trying to have a go at Stones too much. Otamendi and Stones isn't a good pairing, but just trying to say why stats aren't everything.
 

CenturyClub

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Another reason why stats aren't the true story and it's only an example, but if Laporte and Garcia played in 1 game and if you replayed it against the same opponent and Stones and Otamendi were to play.

If Laporte and Garcia were able to play against the press well and advance the ball in the opposition half and dominate possession, then only conceded 2 aerial duels and won 1 and lost 1, then you are 50% at aerial duels. Then if Otamendi and Stones were poor in advancing the ball, then consequently had to face 10 aerial duels. Even if they won 7 out of 10 which is 70% you really don't want that action to happen that many times. Also what happens even if they win the duel? It means nothing if the opposition were to gain possession after that.

On the other side playing out of the back, if Stones and Otamendi are only able to play to the full backs, who plays it back to them, then they play it to Ederson, who has to boot it because he's under pressure then Stones and Otamendi have a 100% pass rating. If Laporte and Garcia take more chances playing into midfield or up to the winger and give it away on occasion, but are successful 7 out of 10 times they would have a pass rating of 70%.

I'm not trying to have a go at Stones too much. Otamendi and Stones isn't a good pairing, but just trying to say why stats aren't everything.
Completely agree. I think it is always better to judge a player with your eyes first instead of judging on stats first.
 

lasereyes

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Joined
5 Nov 2013
Messages
2,465
The above is all well and good, but the numbers are the numbers.

As it relates to just the 4 categories ( and there are a myriad of other categories that weren't including. But as it relates to % of headers won, tacked won, pass accuracy and long pass accuracy. John Stones shows a distinct superiority. This might be function not playing so few games, agreed.

But the numbers are simply saying what the numbers are.

Let's take your example for a second, you said Bournemouth were playing vthe long ball and winning headers? Well John wind 65% of his headers same as Larporte. So we can't assume it would have been any better if Laporte had been the one in the duels. Conversely, we can assume it would have been worse, if it was Garcia seeing as he has the worst in the air percentage I've ever seen on a defender. Perhaps we might have controlled the ball better on the ground though.

These stats are not a full picture of stats talk less performance. But they hint at tendencies in those listed areas.

If nothing else those stats hint at the fact that John Stones might not be as bad as we think!
Stones has had games and even periods where he has looked outstanding. For England as well as City. But his career with City has been badly curtailed by injury and in the last 2 years, he has not been picked for crucial games, both of which are heavy counterpoints to the stats.
 

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