Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[BobKowalski]

Wenger won the French league title and the domestic cup.

Agreed. And Pellegrini won the Argentine league (twice), the Chilean cup, the Ecuadorean league, etc etc. Now, obviously, if we're in South-American-trophies-don't-count-land, that's irrelevant. Can't imagine that's how you think, though, so I'll ask again: difference between his record and Wenger's?

And if we played in South America I would give it more consideration. Pellers could win the Eskimo cup with the Polar Bear Cubs and to be honest I wouldn't be getting excited about that either. Is it entirely fair to judge the guy based on his career in Europe? Probably not. But I do. Its a harsh world.

And it is a very useful yardstick to measure a coach's worth especially if you factor in the fact that football clubs exist to win matches and trophies. Whilst we are all happy to brace the holistic way of life, trophies, or lack of them, have a dramatic impact on a managers time at a club. Hell even we have a target of a trophy a year. Pellers think its achievable and with our squad he is correct.

It really isn't a useful yardstick unless the club you're managing has the resources and playing staff to reasonably expect to compete for trophies. In his time in Europe that's only really been true of Pellegrini for one season. Even the enemies of the holistic surely accept that you need to be able to look at more than one season in order to judge how good a coach is..

Trophies are not the enemies of holistic thinking. Holistic is just another way of trying to win more trophies. If you cannot expect to reasonably compete for trophies at a club in the top division then what the hell are you doing there? Last season we had a painful reminder of what a lesser club can do in terms of winning trophies. The idea that Pellers can be excused not winning anything because he didn't manage RM or Barca for more than a season is nonsense.

That I think other coaches would have a better chance of winning those trophies based on their track record in European football is hardly outlandish.

No, it's not outlandish. That is definitely a reasonable conclusion. But it is outlandish to argue that Pellegrini's lack of European trophies is supportive of the argument, because, frankly, it isn't.

Why? I cite the lack of European trophies as reason for thinking that say Benitez would have a better chance of trophies than Pellegrini. There is data to support the argument based on a track record in European football which is where we ply our trade. You may disagree with the conclusions but not the data itself

And the notion that Pellers has been somehow denied the opportunity to win trophies in the European game is absurd. The Copa Del Rey in the last 10 years has been won more times by teams other than the big two so there was opportunity and that's not even factoring in Pellers being in charge of one of the big two for a season. Unfortunately a mix up between the pianists and the violinists prevented him winning anything. Spending £200m is not apparently a guarantee of success. Who knew.

No, of course he's not been denied opportunities, in the sense that, yes, it's conceivable to win the Copa del Rey with Malaga or Villareal and yes, he could've won a trophy or three in his season at Real. Can't say I view his failure to do so as particularly damning, though (look at it from the opposite perspective: if he had won the Copa del Rey would you, or anyone reasonable, be saying this qualified him for the job? Of course not!).

Fair enough

I prefer to look at his career in the round:
-huge overachievement relative to resources at both Villareal and Malaga
-good European record with both clubs [arguably exceptional, relative to resources]
-deserved reputation for playing excellent football
-then-record points haul in his one season at Real Madrid

That's enough for me to think that he more than merits a chance at City and has ample credentials to do the job. Sure, one could've made a good case for the likes of, say, Rafa, who is also an excellent coach, so it's not like I'm saying Pellegrini was the only good option or even that he was a better choice than Rafa. But I am saying that, if you view his lack of [European] trophies as a reason not to appoint him, then that, IMO, is idiotic.

Fair enough. I don't agree with the last point but I have no issues with you (or anyone) saying why you think Pellers deserves the chance after all I am more than happy to argue the chance should have been given to someone else.<br /><br />-- Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:00 pm --<br /><br />

Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes..

Not sure that's entirely true, Bob.

What can I say. Khaldoon said it was down to not meeting targets. I trust what our leaders tell me :)

 

[Danamy]

I'm not sure how Di Matteo walks properly with them huge balls he must have after winning the Champs League & FA Cup?

I don't want to sound like i'm picking on Bob because I'm not ... but it's just his arguments have been so all over the place recently. He seems to value/devalue the same things in different contexts. Wenger wins two trophies in France. Proof he's a winner. Pellegrini wins more trophies in Argentina. Well that doesn't count. Di Matteo win the CL final with someone else's team. Shows the competition's not all it's cracked up to be. Benitez does the same. Shows he's a winner. Pellegrini finishes second in his one season at a big club with big resources. Loser. Mancini finishes 2nd. Well he got sacked for it but he did win the league the year before. It just seems to me like it'd make a lot more sense to say "I don't rate him but we'll see" and leave it at that, rather than trying to prove he's not very good when your arguments are so contradictory and confused. Just my opinion though ... i'm sure Bob's opinion is that he's right and I'm just trying to rewrite history to make Pellegrini seem like he's better than he is ... :)

One things for sure Billy, one of you will be right

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

What can I say. Khaldoon said it was down to not meeting targets. I trust what our leaders tell me :)

Have you never heard of a moving target? ;-)

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Jesus, I didn't think this forum could shock me given some of the utter bollocks that regularly gets posted on here but I am actually quite shocked by the antipathy towards Pellegrini from some posters. He seems a thoroughly decent guy with a very decent record given the level of resources he has generally had at his disposal. Like any manager who has just started, the jury is out, but can we at least see how he does before we decide he's a failure?

 

[Deleted member 52846]

Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes..

No, he didn't.

It may be down on the list of factors that contributed to it somewhere down in tenth or eleventh place. But I believe he was sacked because he wanted to be the autocratic manager of Manchester City FC, whereas with Begiristain wanted a first team coach at the club and Mancini just didn't fit that bill at all.

 

[Danamy]

Jesus, I didn't think this forum could shock me given some of the utter bollocks that regularly gets posted on here but I am actually quite shocked by the antipathy towards Pellegrini from some posters. He seems a thoroughly decent guy with a very decent record given the level of resources he has generally had at his disposal. Like any manager who has just started, the jury is out, but can we at least see how he does before we decide he's a failure?

Why post something like that?

You've now made the thread look all untidy with that sensible post, please leave the thread ;-)

 

[Ducado]

I wonder what would provide closure on this issue?

My take on it is that Mancinie was a great manager for us, and will be forever remembered with fondness and kindness by the majority of City fans, but he has moved on and so should we, what is done is done and there is no going back.

 

[CityPar]

Jesus, I didn't think this forum could shock me given some of the utter bollocks that regularly gets posted on here but I am actually quite shocked by the antipathy towards Pellegrini from some posters. He seems a thoroughly decent guy with a very decent record given the level of resources he has generally had at his disposal. Like any manager who has just started, the jury is out, but can we at least see how he does before we decide he's a failure?

Why post something like that?

You've now made the thread look all untidy with that sensible post, please leave the thread ;-)

Exactly. There's no room for calm, level headed people on here. Hysteria and irrational arguments are the order of the day. Give Pellegrini time? You're far too reasonable.... ;o)

 

[BobKowalski]

Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes..

No, he didn't.

It may be down on the list of factors that contributed to it somewhere down in tenth or eleventh place. But I believe he was sacked because he wanted to be the autocratic manager of Manchester City FC, whereas with Begiristain wanted a first team coach at the club and Mancini just didn't fit that bill at all.

Really? Fuck me I didn't know that...

There are a fair few posts from me about the reasons behind Mancini's dismissal including some before he was dismissed and the Ferrran/Txiki dynamic on one side and Mancini on the other with both sides wanting to run the club as they saw fit. Mancini overplayed his hand and lost. It happens all the time. One side wins and one side loses. Since I had a foot in both camps (I'm a fan of F&T and also of Mancini) I just watched to see how it played out. Not that the outcome was in that much doubt. Cliffhanger it was not. So yes I know and yes sometimes I use a snappy rhetorical question and answer to make a point. So sue me.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure how Di Matteo walks properly with them huge balls he must have after winning the Champs League & FA Cup?

I don't want to sound like i'm picking on Bob because I'm not ... but it's just his arguments have been so all over the place recently. He seems to value/devalue the same things in different contexts. Wenger wins two trophies in France. Proof he's a winner. Pellegrini wins more trophies in Argentina. Well that doesn't count. Di Matteo win the CL final with someone else's team. Shows the competition's not all it's cracked up to be. Benitez does the same. Shows he's a winner. Pellegrini finishes second in his one season at a big club with big resources. Loser. Mancini finishes 2nd. Well he got sacked for it but he did win the league the year before. It just seems to me like it'd make a lot more sense to say "I don't rate him but we'll see" and leave it at that, rather than trying to prove he's not very good when your arguments are so contradictory and confused. Just my opinion though ... i'm sure Bob's opinion is that he's right and I'm just trying to rewrite history to make Pellegrini seem like he's better than he is ... :)

One things for sure Billy, one of you will be right

I suspect we'll both be right because when we win the league this season it'll be because ... well, Mourinho can't win the league without a decent forward and David Moyes is just the English Pellegrini except without the quality squad ... :)