Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[BobKowalski]

Difference between Pellegrini's record before joining City and Wenger's before joining Arsenal?

To go on about how many trophies a manager has / hasn't won is idiotic in my view (and that goes equally for Moyes), unless they've spent significant time at a dominant club. It's just such a crude [basically useless, in the case of Moyes and Pellegrini] way of assessing whether they're any good or not, I can't believe anyone seriously looks at it as a criterion (and, clearly, the big European clubs don't, in any meaningful way).

Wenger won the French league title and the domestic cup. And it is a very useful yardstick to measure a coach's worth especially if you factor in the fact that football clubs exist to win matches and trophies. Whilst we are all happy to brace the holistic way of life, trophies, or lack of them, have a dramatic impact on a managers time at a club. Hell even we have a target of a trophy a year. Pellers think its achievable and with our squad he is correct.

That I think other coaches would have a better chance of winning those trophies based on their track record in European football is hardly outlandish. And the notion that Pellers has been somehow denied the opportunity to win trophies in the European game is absurd. The Copa Del Rey in the last 10 years has been won more times by teams other than the big two so there was opportunity and that's not even factoring in Pellers being in charge of one of the big two for a season. Unfortunately a mix up between the pianists and the violinists prevented him winning anything. Spending £200m is not apparently a guarantee of success. Who knew.

well not when players you want to keep are sold and players are bought that you don't want. £80m on Torres and Shevchenko proves that.

Yeah I know getting Ronaldo must have been a real kicker. Look its what RM do. Hell its what we have done with Barry on a lesser scale and no doubt Lescott in January. RM buy Bale and sell Ozil to raise cash then its down to Ancellotti to make it work. He doesn't make it work he gets fired. Just like Chelsea. Its the gig you sign up for and whining about it afterwards is futile even if you may have a point. How many of us got fed up with Mancini bemoaning not getting RVP? Lots. Did he have a point? Yes. Did it cost us? Yes. Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes. So whats the fucking difference? Apart from Mancini moaned beforehand ala Jose and his eggs and Pellers did it after he left.

Bottom line I think we could have appointed a better coach. Thats it. Endless revisionism to 'prove' Pellers is a great success and tutting over how unlucky he has been isn't cutting it for me. That it does for others who seemed to have invested emotionally in Pellegrini is down to them but neither viewpoint is going to make any difference to how well Pellers actually does or not.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes..

Not sure that's entirely true, Bob.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah I know getting Ronaldo must have been a real kicker. Look its what RM do. Hell its what we have done with Barry on a lesser scale and no doubt Lescott in January. RM buy Bale and sell Ozil to raise cash then its down to Ancellotti to make it work. He doesn't make it work he gets fired. Just like Chelsea. Its the gig you sign up for and whining about it afterwards is futile even if you may have a point. How many of us got fed up with Mancini bemoaning not getting RVP? Lots. Did he have a point? Yes. Did it cost us? Yes. Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes. So whats the fucking difference? Apart from Mancini moaned beforehand ala Jose and his eggs and Pellers did it after he left.

Bottom line I think we could have appointed a better coach. Thats it. Endless revisionism to 'prove' Pellers is a great success and tutting over how unlucky he has been isn't cutting it for me. That it does for others who seemed to have invested emotionally in Pellegrini is down to them but neither viewpoint is going to make any difference to how well Pellers actually does or not.

You're arguments don't stack up - not one little bit. The Madrid one. Absolute unadulterated bollocks. It might be what Madrid do (sack managers every year) but it doesn't mean the guy they employed wasn't good enough. It just means he didn't deliver instantly. Sometimes you deliver instantly and you get sacked there. Mancini getting sacked after having three years to build a team, to then finish 2nd, is totally different to Pellegrini getting sacked 12 months after inheriting a team.

There's no revisionism to try and "prove" anything about Pellegrini. There's just you endlessly trying to "prove" that he isn't as good as Benitez and is in fact on a par with Moyes, Hughes, and Hodgson. Amazes you don't see that and still try and make out that you're just trying to bring balance to an argument you're completely biased about.

 

[blueparrot]

Wenger won the French league title and the domestic cup. And it is a very useful yardstick to measure a coach's worth especially if you factor in the fact that football clubs exist to win matches and trophies. Whilst we are all happy to brace the holistic way of life, trophies, or lack of them, have a dramatic impact on a managers time at a club. Hell even we have a target of a trophy a year. Pellers think its achievable and with our squad he is correct.

That I think other coaches would have a better chance of winning those trophies based on their track record in European football is hardly outlandish. And the notion that Pellers has been somehow denied the opportunity to win trophies in the European game is absurd. The Copa Del Rey in the last 10 years has been won more times by teams other than the big two so there was opportunity and that's not even factoring in Pellers being in charge of one of the big two for a season. Unfortunately a mix up between the pianists and the violinists prevented him winning anything. Spending £200m is not apparently a guarantee of success. Who knew.[/quote]

well not when players you want to keep are sold and players are bought that you don't want. £80m on Torres and Shevchenko proves that.[/quote]

Yeah I know getting Ronaldo must have been a real kicker. Look its what RM do. Hell its what we have done with Barry on a lesser scale and no doubt Lescott in January. RM buy Bale and sell Ozil to raise cash then its down to Ancellotti to make it work. He doesn't make it work he gets fired. Just like Chelsea. Its the gig you sign up for and whining about it afterwards is futile even if you may have a point. How many of us got fed up with Mancini bemoaning not getting RVP? Lots. Did he have a point? Yes. Did it cost us? Yes. Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes. So whats the fucking difference? Apart from Mancini moaned beforehand ala Jose and his eggs and Pellers did it after he left.

Bottom line I think we could have appointed a better coach. Thats it. Endless revisionism to 'prove' Pellers is a great success and tutting over how unlucky he has been isn't cutting it for me. That it does for others who seemed to have invested emotionally in Pellegrini is down to them but neither viewpoint is going to make any difference to how well Pellers actually does or not.[/quote]

No he didn't As somebody who supported Mancini I accept finishing second isn't the reason he was replaced

 

[moomba]

I hate to sound like a Tory blaming the Labour governments of past on the current recession but given what people close to the club have said about Mancini's man management, I think we'll need more time to repair the broken players. Pellegrini's man management has proven to be a success in the past and this is evident from the previous matches. But it does take time. The more something is broken, the longer it will take to repair. Much like a broken arm in that respect.

Pellegrini is experienced enough. Yes, we're struggling a little in the prem but I don't believe the panic buttons should be pressed. Remember Mancini's first few games in charge? He already knew the prem from his days in England but we still weren't that convincing at that point.

I give it another month. That is when we know how Pellegrini will be matching up against others. We're already a damn site more attacking and there is more fluidity particularly in wide areas of the pitch. Players are more confident and eventually this will come to fruition during the foreseeable.

If our players are so brittle they don't need repairing, they need replacing with a better model.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Did Mancini get sacked for finishing second? Yes..

Not sure that's entirely true, Bob.

Haha. For fuck's sake. Had a peep and the hankering loons still walk in this thread.

"Mancini was sacked for finishing second". Laughably deluded.

Comical. I enjoyed that.

As you were....

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

A great performance, we went and attacked and put out a team to stamp our authority. I stand by the fact that the managers confidence and knowledge of the Champions League counts for a lot. He knew we could beat them and made the players believe. He didn't tinker with formations or put out a defensive lineup, he didn't try three at the back. I know people hate the mention of Mancini but Pellegrini has been brought in to address our European form and so he will no doubt pop up in conversation, I have said previously I think Mancini put a lot of pressure on himself to perform in Europe, he was sacked from Inter for poor performances, the first season we did everything right and ultimately were unlucky. I think last season he mixed it up too much. Away at Ajax the side he put out was dreadful. He almost tried too much. But the draw was tough. Moving on, Pellegrini has taken the pressure off us completely. We play Bayern knowing that anything above a loss is a great result and it is a real test against a class side, the best in Europe most probably. Pellegrini knows their system and players well and indeed Guardiolas. Got a lot of confidence in him taking us forward when the players gel. Moving into the derby we will get a good idea of how he sets us up and what sort of mentality he has for the game. Given ours and the rags wins in Europe it means no matter what the result is the pressure will not build. I was hoping the rags would struggle and if we beat them Moyes would be in for a really rough ride.

Yes, the game with Munich is a fascinating one. last season against Dortmund Malaga struggled at home and were very lucky to get away with the draw. In the away leg though Pellegrini had obviously given great attention to Dortmund's preference to play on the break and slice through midfield, and he stopped them doing both completely in Germany. Dortmund never looked the slick passing Rolls-Royce they had done in other matches. Isco had an outstanding game there and we all know how close Malaga came to pulling off a shock. Munich obviously pose different problems, though they break very quickly too and go forward with great power and pace, but three points at home for City and the group would be looking very healthy indeed. A point at home and we might feel a bit twitchy with a date on Moscow's plastic pitch next up - just a thought, aren't they having work done on their ground and playing their matches elsewhere?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

A great performance, we went and attacked and put out a team to stamp our authority. I stand by the fact that the managers confidence and knowledge of the Champions League counts for a lot. He knew we could beat them and made the players believe. He didn't tinker with formations or put out a defensive lineup, he didn't try three at the back. I know people hate the mention of Mancini but Pellegrini has been brought in to address our European form and so he will no doubt pop up in conversation, I have said previously I think Mancini put a lot of pressure on himself to perform in Europe, he was sacked from Inter for poor performances, the first season we did everything right and ultimately were unlucky. I think last season he mixed it up too much. Away at Ajax the side he put out was dreadful. He almost tried too much. But the draw was tough. Moving on, Pellegrini has taken the pressure off us completely. We play Bayern knowing that anything above a loss is a great result and it is a real test against a class side, the best in Europe most probably. Pellegrini knows their system and players well and indeed Guardiolas. Got a lot of confidence in him taking us forward when the players gel. Moving into the derby we will get a good idea of how he sets us up and what sort of mentality he has for the game. Given ours and the rags wins in Europe it means no matter what the result is the pressure will not build. I was hoping the rags would struggle and if we beat them Moyes would be in for a really rough ride.

Yes, the game with Munich is a fascinating one. last season against Dortmund Malaga struggled at home and were very lucky to get away with the draw. In the away leg though Pellegrini had obviously given great attention to Dortmund's preference to play on the break and slice through midfield, and he stopped them doing both completely in Germany. Dortmund never looked the slick passing Rolls-Royce they had done in other matches. Isco had an outstanding game there and we all know how close Malaga came to pulling off a shock. Munich obviously pose different problems, though they break very quickly too and go forward with great power and pace, but three points at home for City and the group would be looking very healthy indeed. A point at home and we might feel a bit twitchy with a date on Moscow's plastic pitch next up - just a thought, aren't they having work done on their ground and playing their matches elsewhere?

and the fact that only a farcical penalty by a german ref in the Audi Cup stopped us beating a near full-strength Bayern on their own turf.

There seems to be a fair amount of excuse making on either side as to why Pellegrini is or isn't right and to be honest it's a nonsense, we won 3-0 last night. Debating credentials is irrelevant now he's in charge, we have to see what he does and he made a point last night. With our first team out we played in patches the best football we've seen since the takeover and there is no disputing that. The passing, movement, sharpness and just ease at which we ripped apart Plzen showed me there is merit in what Pelle is trying to do. The issues? Well you ideally only want to have a couple of squad players in the team at any one time, and injuries have meant that early on in the season we've had to put more squad players in the starting XI than we'd like. This has made us disjointed as these players need the competitive match time to develop their ability to execute the way we want them to play. Jovetic and Negredo together is not a combination anyone should want to see at this stage of the season, one of them should always be paired up with a current striker who's settled at the club. The ideal situation would be for 1 or 2 squad players to come into the team and get a feel for the way we play rather than they themselves having to take it off the training ground and onto the pitch without the help of our stars and sometimes when out of position (see Garcia). This is why Cardiff and Stoke have been so poor. You can't underestimate the loss of Vinny nor the loss of Demichelis, as his experience and knowledge of Pelle's tactics would have been of great help.

Pelle needs to work on our defensive shape and play whilst having 2 strikers but the merits to our play were clear to see last night, over time we will only start playing like the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half more often and we'll see where that takes us.

 

[Danamy]

I'm not sure how Di Matteo walks properly with them huge balls he must have after winning the Champs League & FA Cup?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure how Di Matteo walks properly with them huge balls he must have after winning the Champs League & FA Cup?

I don't want to sound like i'm picking on Bob because I'm not ... but it's just his arguments have been so all over the place recently. He seems to value/devalue the same things in different contexts. Wenger wins two trophies in France. Proof he's a winner. Pellegrini wins more trophies in Argentina. Well that doesn't count. Di Matteo win the CL final with someone else's team. Shows the competition's not all it's cracked up to be. Benitez does the same. Shows he's a winner. Pellegrini finishes second in his one season at a big club with big resources. Loser. Mancini finishes 2nd. Well he got sacked for it but he did win the league the year before. It just seems to me like it'd make a lot more sense to say "I don't rate him but we'll see" and leave it at that, rather than trying to prove he's not very good when your arguments are so contradictory and confused. Just my opinion though ... i'm sure Bob's opinion is that he's right and I'm just trying to rewrite history to make Pellegrini seem like he's better than he is ... :)