Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[cleavers]

In fact the squabbling got so boring I went and did some work, thanks for returning to the subject, hopefully it might catch on.

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

One night of minor squabbles and you're getting all prissy ... ;)

Not really, that's why I f*cked off and did some work, more to do now, so carry on :)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Was that audience member on QT a real person or a Harry Enfield character?

 

[George Hannah]

Billy, explain to me the following:

The heatmaps of the City/Bayern game show that we had most of our limited possession within our own half. UEFA kindly listed us as playing 4-2-3-1, and Bayern 4-1-4-1. Sadly the system is not as good on the UEFA site as it used to be. I suggest you look at the live map and see the startling difference between the two teams:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/match-centre/cup=1/season=2014/day=2/session=2/match=2011781/popout/pitchview.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/match-centre/cup=1/ ... hview.html</a>

I pointed out last season where Mancini's failings were. Look here and see just how badly we were dominated in key events:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000479/match=2011781/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2014/2000479/2011781/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

Now look at the formation patterns:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000479/match=2011781/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2014/2000479/2011781/pitch-view/team-shape/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... am-shape/0</a>

In the first 15 minutes we clearly play 2 up top. And they're both on top of each other. We play essentially 4-1-3-2 with Fernandinho holding but really it's a triangular 3 with Nasri and Yaya with Navas doing his own thing on the right. We are lobsided to the right hand side of the pitch, with a tiny focal point. Bayern have a much more balanced shape. Lahm is essentially playing as a 3rd CB, they have the 2 wing backs and it allows Kroos and Schweinsteiger to get up towards the front 3. It becomes more of a front 5 because they're on the front foot and are keeping possession. They have close links to a team mate, especially down the left so they can interchange and pass quickly. Their passing arrows are forwards, ours are backwards because we couldn't keep the ball.

15-30 becomes more telling. City's shape has gone. Navas has become more isolated, Nasri, Yaya and Fern are close together but have drifted slightly left and Fern is directly behind Yaya. Aguero and Dzeko are still right next to each other. The back 4 is stretched. Bayern take full advantage. They move their back 4 over to the right, why? because that is where they are going to pounce and get the ball back off Nasri and Yaya. Dante always sits back and covers. They then have 2 batches of 3 in their front 6, why? so a player always has a teammate to pass to. You can also notice that if you put the two formations on top of each other then the Bayern trios are right in the 2 gaping holes City leave in midfield/defence. Between Nasri and Clichy and huge channel between the midfield trio and Navas and Micah. It is no surprise that Pep was up guiding his team through for large periods, his team have reacted and exploited the space they've created in City's ranks.

30-45 Bayern keep up that system, and there are still gaps but they are smaller and that's because the back 4 of City has finally shuffled closer together. It's a temporary fix and leads to a lull of some sorts in the attacking momentum bar for this period. Navas is still isolated and Aguero and Dzeko have been holding hands the entire half, anyone seeing this would obviously change?

45-60 and the killer phase. Bayern keep the shape but Kroos moves slightly to link the front 6 together more. Look how high up their midfielders are. They are dominant. City's back 4 stretches again, Nasri becomes more isolated as Yaya drifts back on top on Fern and Navas is still all on his own. Aguero and Dzeko still hold hands as Bayern kill the game.

60-75, for the first time in an hour that Bayern 6 splits and Ribery becomes a little isolated. Kroos has moved over further to the right to link with the right hand side trio. City suffer for the first 10 minutes but then make changes that alleviates some pressure. Milner sticks to the left finally bringing balance to Navas on the right. Silva slots in higher up the pitch and ends Aguero's bonding sessions with his strike partners. Yaya sits on Fern.

75-90, City's best spell. The tactical changes have worked as there is only Negredo up front and Silva has the team slightly higher up the pitch showing we have more of the ball. There are still too many spaces but it's an improvement, Navas finally has someone to pass to. Bayern are shutting up shop. Gotze goes up top more with Muller meaning there is now space for Micah and Navas to get forward at Alaba and exploit Dante. That nice defensive shape of Bayern is distorted slightly as Kirchoff comes on and confuses the shape with Lahm, they end up on top of each other. Whereas Schweinsteiger had kept forward the changes now allowed City out and onto the front foot, Yaya could move forward as 3 attacking players and in particular 1 attacking midfielder and 1 key wide man had come off. City were relieved of the Bayern screw and that's a big reason as to why we had a much better last quarter.

Sadly Billy the Malaga maps for last season are no longer on the UEFA website, but it's clear from the line-ups that they would at most have put Baptista up front on his own. He was braver in the home leg, playing Saviola as well, but Saviola hasn't been an out and out striker in a long time. On wednesday however there were clear errors tactically that weren't resolved for 70 minutes, leaving Bayern to work it out within 10 and dominate it for an hour.

Explain to me how Guardiola noticed what was wrong and Pellegrini didn't.

this question looks like something Manuel should consider too

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

It's not about how we play within a system at the moment but the fact that once the system is rumbled by the opposition our game effectively ends.

It shouldn't take a year to realise that 3 usually beats 2 and 4 usually beats 3. It's fundamental.

 

[BobKowalski]

Thanks to JMW for the maps and the analysis. Very interesting esp the graphic showing the balance of the BM team

 

[bernabias home shirt]

Ouch
Fetlocks just beats him up badly for 11 rounds
And the TMQ comes in with an uppercut to knock him out in round 12

Nice :)

 

[OB1]

You want the players to believe in MP's system.
He played his system last night I think you'd agree ?
His system was an utter flop last night, it would be hard to disagree ?
His system is proven to work in the past, so you want him to stick with it ?

If the players don’t believe in MP’s system, we have a big problem.

Yes he asked the players to play to his system last night. How much of the poor performance was down solely to his system is something that I cannot put a number on but I think his tactics contributed. I’ve already listed other factors that I think contributed.


Do I want him to stick with his system? I’d rather we adopted Pep’s approach but then didn’t Pep nab some of his approach from Pellegrini?
I’d like the players to execute consistently what I think Pellegrini is looking for but I don’t think they have done and that is what failed as you put it at Cardiff etc.

I'm not being difficult, but its this 'there is only one sytstem' thing that probably worries most of us, most of all, it seems to have worked against Newcastle, United, Plzen, and to a degree Villa, barring the individual f*ck ups costing us the game, but its has definitely failed against Cardiff, and Hull in the PL, and last night against Bayern. The worrying bit, is his lack of flexibility when its clearly going wrong, last night changes should have been made after 20 minutes, it was obvious to everyone in the stadium.



Different games need flexibility in systems, both from one game to another and even within games. At Villa for instance, having been so dominant, and having seen them equalise, and us go back in front, why not just make sure of the result. Last night watching 6 on 2 in midfield, why not change things, to at least stem the tide ?

I agree that you need some flexibility and I’d say we saw that from Pellegrini when, for instance, Malaga played Dortmund last season.

The point I was making was not that Pellegrini should be inflexible but that he has to demonstrate faith in his approach to his players and in his players’ ability to adapt to what he wants. He has to strike the right balance in that regard. Last night, he probably didn’t but everyone makes mistakes; the trick is not to repeat them too often.

I agree the trick is to learn from the errors, my worry is that this 442, or as some refer to it 4222, and last night it was more 2222................2 is one that won't work consistently. I wasn't having a go at you at all, just hoping to open up the debate a bit, but I see the usual squabbling took over from debate about the bloody football, which for most of us is far more interesting.

In fact the squabbling got so boring I went and did some work, thanks for returning to the subject, hopefully it might catch on.

 

[goalmole]

I might be a minority on here saying this but fair play to Pellegrini last night for trying to take on Bayern the way we did. The European Champions who are arguably the best club side in the world came to our back yard and our manager believed that our team, playing our way could beat them. There is no doubt that Pellers should have made the change to put 3 in the middle earlier but if we want to dominate Europe then we have to play our way against our opponents, especially at home. Bayern, Barca and Madrid all have their styles of football which has brought them success and made them feared across Europe. Sometimes their style doesn't work, (look at Barca Vs Bayern last year) but the majority of the time it does. That is the level we are aiming to be. With hindsight we should have realised that we are not yet at that stage and should have lined up to frustrate Bayern. But I for one am glad we have a gaffer who believes our team can take on the best.

Pellegrini has to learn from this though. If we were playing Bayern or another major team away then I would fully expect him to take a more cautious approach. But last night was a chance to see if we could take on the big boys and sadly we came short.

The thing what stood out for me in the match was that despite getting completely outplayed, if Joe Hart hadn't made a f*** up AGAIN then we would have gone in 0-0 at half time. And despite the 4-2-2-2 not working first half, I though we were the better team second half until they scored their 2nd. On a more positive note despite getting well beaten we could have even snatched a point. Yaya would have scored if he had not been took out, Silva hit the bar from the resulting free kick and Negrado missed a good header.

I think Pellegrini needs to learn from this game though. We are not quite there yet in terms of performances and he needs to be more tactically astute especially in our away games and against the better sides. I still fully respect what Pellegrini and our club are trying to do though. They are trying to give us a philosophy so we can match the Barca's, and Bayern's etc. Whether or not 4-2-2-2 is the right formation only time will tell. But the fact we are committed to reaching that level is very promising. Many teams win the CL and are nothing special look at Porto and Chelsea. They are teams who won it but you would be happy to be drawn against. The level we are aiming at is much higher than that.

I'll get out of the bath and put the razor blades away then.

 

[Danamy]

Billy, explain to me the following:

The heatmaps of the City/Bayern game show that we had most of our limited possession within our own half. UEFA kindly listed us as playing 4-2-3-1, and Bayern 4-1-4-1. Sadly the system is not as good on the UEFA site as it used to be. I suggest you look at the live map and see the startling difference between the two teams:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/match-centre/cup=1/season=2014/day=2/session=2/match=2011781/popout/pitchview.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/match-centre/cup=1/ ... hview.html</a>

I pointed out last season where Mancini's failings were. Look here and see just how badly we were dominated in key events:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000479/match=2011781/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2014/2000479/2011781/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

Now look at the formation patterns:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000479/match=2011781/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2014/2000479/2011781/pitch-view/team-shape/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... am-shape/0</a>

In the first 15 minutes we clearly play 2 up top. And they're both on top of each other. We play essentially 4-1-3-2 with Fernandinho holding but really it's a triangular 3 with Nasri and Yaya with Navas doing his own thing on the right. We are lobsided to the right hand side of the pitch, with a tiny focal point. Bayern have a much more balanced shape. Lahm is essentially playing as a 3rd CB, they have the 2 wing backs and it allows Kroos and Schweinsteiger to get up towards the front 3. It becomes more of a front 5 because they're on the front foot and are keeping possession. They have close links to a team mate, especially down the left so they can interchange and pass quickly. Their passing arrows are forwards, ours are backwards because we couldn't keep the ball.

15-30 becomes more telling. City's shape has gone. Navas has become more isolated, Nasri, Yaya and Fern are close together but have drifted slightly left and Fern is directly behind Yaya. Aguero and Dzeko are still right next to each other. The back 4 is stretched. Bayern take full advantage. They move their back 4 over to the right, why? because that is where they are going to pounce and get the ball back off Nasri and Yaya. Dante always sits back and covers. They then have 2 batches of 3 in their front 6, why? so a player always has a teammate to pass to. You can also notice that if you put the two formations on top of each other then the Bayern trios are right in the 2 gaping holes City leave in midfield/defence. Between Nasri and Clichy and huge channel between the midfield trio and Navas and Micah. It is no surprise that Pep was up guiding his team through for large periods, his team have reacted and exploited the space they've created in City's ranks.

30-45 Bayern keep up that system, and there are still gaps but they are smaller and that's because the back 4 of City has finally shuffled closer together. It's a temporary fix and leads to a lull of some sorts in the attacking momentum bar for this period. Navas is still isolated and Aguero and Dzeko have been holding hands the entire half, anyone seeing this would obviously change?

45-60 and the killer phase. Bayern keep the shape but Kroos moves slightly to link the front 6 together more. Look how high up their midfielders are. They are dominant. City's back 4 stretches again, Nasri becomes more isolated as Yaya drifts back on top on Fern and Navas is still all on his own. Aguero and Dzeko still hold hands as Bayern kill the game.

60-75, for the first time in an hour that Bayern 6 splits and Ribery becomes a little isolated. Kroos has moved over further to the right to link with the right hand side trio. City suffer for the first 10 minutes but then make changes that alleviates some pressure. Milner sticks to the left finally bringing balance to Navas on the right. Silva slots in higher up the pitch and ends Aguero's bonding sessions with his strike partners. Yaya sits on Fern.

75-90, City's best spell. The tactical changes have worked as there is only Negredo up front and Silva has the team slightly higher up the pitch showing we have more of the ball. There are still too many spaces but it's an improvement, Navas finally has someone to pass to. Bayern are shutting up shop. Gotze goes up top more with Muller meaning there is now space for Micah and Navas to get forward at Alaba and exploit Dante. That nice defensive shape of Bayern is distorted slightly as Kirchoff comes on and confuses the shape with Lahm, they end up on top of each other. Whereas Schweinsteiger had kept forward the changes now allowed City out and onto the front foot, Yaya could move forward as 3 attacking players and in particular 1 attacking midfielder and 1 key wide man had come off. City were relieved of the Bayern screw and that's a big reason as to why we had a much better last quarter.

Sadly Billy the Malaga maps for last season are no longer on the UEFA website, but it's clear from the line-ups that they would at most have put Baptista up front on his own. He was braver in the home leg, playing Saviola as well, but Saviola hasn't been an out and out striker in a long time. On wednesday however there were clear errors tactically that weren't resolved for 70 minutes, leaving Bayern to work it out within 10 and dominate it for an hour.

Explain to me how Guardiola noticed what was wrong and Pellegrini didn't.

That's a great overview on last nights game JMW

It enhances my point and increases my frustration that he hasn't yet played or tried 4-2-3-1

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Sadly Billy the Malaga maps for last season are no longer on the UEFA website, but it's clear from the line-ups that they would at most have put Baptista up front on his own. He was braver in the home leg, playing Saviola as well, but Saviola hasn't been an out and out striker in a long time. On wednesday however there were clear errors tactically that weren't resolved for 70 minutes, leaving Bayern to work it out within 10 and dominate it for an hour.

Explain to me how Guardiola noticed what was wrong and Pellegrini didn't.

Woah ... hang on mate. Where did I say that Pellegrini didn't fuck up last night ? I tried to present clearly defined alternative points of view earlier today but agreed for the most part Pellegrini got it way wrong last night both in terms of formation and team selection ...

I also have continually praised your footballing insight and input on the forum so I'm baffled as to why you feel the need to continually have a pop at me ...

Tonight I feel like you're trying to pick an argument with people on Mancini/Pellegrini and 2bh I don't think you've handled yourself well. Ultimately though I put the criticism up on saturday of what Pelle is doing and I was met with what I felt was a pretty cool "it's not going to change, deal with it" response from you. Wednesday he tried it on again and I was genuinely staggered and albeit I may have missed some of your posts, but just the way you've come across tonight had me feeling that because last night wasn't a one-off in what he's trying to do that you were overly defensive of him because of this "faction" shit where everyone seems to be wanting to prove the other "side" wrong all the time. Ultimately I feel I showed that Mancini fucked it up last season and Pelle is fucking it up this season. You told me 4-4-2 was here to stay on saturday pretty much so I've put it to you to defend it with what I've shown you and how badly it came undone.

Put it this way mate unless Pelle changes rapido he's going to get fired. These petty squabbles are nothing but point scoring but the only man who needs to be doing that right now is Pelle. The simple problem for him is it is so bloody evident even to those who aren't "FM geeks" as football fans like to label fans who try and learn what they can without going to coaching school, even they know what's going wrong and he's sat there like a lemon whilst Pep is stood on the touchline for 10 minutes solid virtually explaining to each player where they need to move and what they need to do in this phase to dominate the game, and by god they did that. Such a simple exploitation of 2 holes of space that he picked up on in the first 10 minutes and tailored his team shape to.

It was a man against a boy and I was flickering between each side of the fence last season about Mancini and the potential replacement. I wasn't convinced about Pelle but I got on board with it, was excited by the signings and myself came up with how I thought we could play this season. We've done something different and it clearly isn't working. Newcastle it worked because they were shit, Plzen it worked eventually because we have too much star quality for little teams. Utd it worked because Moyes is tactically average and went toe to toe in 4-4-2 against us, once he switched to 3 in midfield United had the better of the last 40 (like last night it didn't matter by then).

I'm quickly losing faith because even though I'm "only" a fan if I can see what's going wrong and it isn't changed by the guy paid thousands in the dugout it starts to irk, like it has so many fans who last night saw an abomination in tactical decision making. That's what's annoyed people, moreso than the defensive errors or underperforming individuals, it's the fact that they all went last night, or watched on TV, and they all saw how badly we were set up. They were all promised a guy who knew what he was doing, was tactically better than Mancini and would solve our European problems. Last night was the arse-clenching "oh shit" moment, and the "what the fuck is going on? this isn't what we were told would happen, why isn't he changing it?" moment. Regardless of who liked/didn't like Mancini and that silly little running spat, regardless of "allegiance", anyone criticising Pellegrini in general last night, even the few who have panicked and maybe made a rash judgement, can't be argued against or talked down to, because they're right. The guy deserves a chance but poor results is one thing, poor results when the fans have cottoned on to pretty much why is another, and a much quicker death for the manager's career at that club.

What mystifies me is that I can't for one second believe that Ferran and Txiki weren't sat there bemused as well. No matter Pelle's system of preference, no matter if it took time elsewhere to click, in time it always has to be adapted slightly depending on the players you have and their characters. We evidently need a slightly different setup, and he needs to sort it. There could be every merit to his general ideas, but they have to be tailored to us. Guardiola evolved his slightly in 10 minutes yesterday, there's no reason why Pelle shouldn't do the same.