Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[PragueBlue]

Was wondering what it would take to turn around opinions on Pellegrini.

Our next 6 are Everton (h), West Ham (a), CSKA (a - champions league), Chelsea (a), Newcastle (a - league cup), Norwich (h).

Win all 6 and we'll be top or close to top of the premier league, looking very good for progression to the group stages of the champions league and through to the quarter finals of the league cup. OK its a big ask to win all 6 on current form but would anyone be unhappy with Pellegrini if we can get ourselves into that sort of position in three comps?

I'm sure that if we win the next 6, everyone would be very happy. Can't see it happening though.

 

[Anonymous]

All this speculation about Pellegrini is too silly for words and also way too soon. In the famous words of Monty Python "stop the sketch, its getting silly, it started out as a good idea but now its just getting silly". We are where we are, and we got what we got. By mid-December we will know better.

By 10th December when we close out our group stage schedule we will be in a better position to assess our season. If we qualify to move on to the knockout stage then our European season will be judged as moving in the right direction. If we fail to qualify or worse if we drop into the Europa tin pot thing then we will be judged as not improving.

By 14th December when we play Arsenal in the League we will be in a better position to assess our league season, as we will have played 16 games. If we are playing good football and getting good results then we can all feel more confident. Lets reserve judgement til then.

Let's be clear here. I am not saying that Pelle might have to go if we are out of Europe by Christmas. Every new manager deserves at least a full first year to adjust and start delivering, and we are not as impatient or as bad as Chelski (well not as bad as yet anyway). But I am saying that the plan may have to go out the window along with some of the assistants, and then make some tactical and player changes IN & OUT early in the January transfer window.

I am an optimist, but also a realist, and I always want the best for my team. So I hope we can do it after our unimpressive play so far. But every member of the squad must do their best every game (not just now and then). I hope Senor Pellegrini will be a great success for us and stick around for a few years.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Wednesday was the first time I’ve doubted him, we could all see the problem, yet he did nothing. Even if he’d have made a different change to the one I was thinking of and it didn’t work, at least it’d have shown he understood there was a problem and tried to fix it. I buried my head in my hands when he subbed Dzeko for Negredo, it just seemed so stupid.

I’ve posted before that my belief was we’d be using 4-3-3 this season and when the season started and we were using 4-2-2-2 I thought he might have just been giving the players a bit more time to get used to 4-3-3 in training. However, we’re in October and there’s still no sign of the 4-3-3, it’s becoming rather disappointing.

One thing I'll say about playing 433 ... IMO we don't have the quality of players required in wide attacking areas to play that way regularly. I posted this elsewhere but if you look across Europe at the top teams their wide options are head and shoulders better than ours. Reus, Gotze, Robben, Ribery, Di Maria, Bale, Ronaldo, Lucas Moura, Lavezzi, Messi, Pedro, Sanchez ... IMO all those players walk into our best XI in a 433. We only have two orthodox wide forwards in Jovetic and Navas. The rest of our attacking midfield or forward players would be square'ish pegs in round'ish holes playing that system.

Don't get me wrong though, not at all trying to justify not sticking another body in midfield against Bayern ... but talking more about the larger context of why we seem to be playing the same relatively narrow 4222 we did under Mancini rather than the kind of 433 Barca/Bayern/Madrid play.

There are variations. The 4-4-2 become unsustainable on wednesday because Navas was playing the wide role and Nasri didn't, thus Navas was left isolated and the Bayern midfield could focus on filling the spaces in between and stopping the ball really getting out there and doing any damage. When Milner came down the left it helped because we stretched them on both flanks.

We don't have a natural left winger to play either 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 in the traditional sense. What we have really have is the option to move to a 4-2-3-1 with a very fluid and interchangeable attacking line which is where some of our best attacking play comes from. Jovetic, Silva, Nasri, Milner can all interchange in the wider left role, they are not all ideal to staying in that role but according to the players positions in certain attacks there is no harm in them interchanging and doing stints in that position. In defence they cover the role they were in for the previous attack.

My first choice for a signing is Reus, with Dzeko going the other way for exactly this purpose. In certain games we can deploy Yaya further forward and make it 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-3-2, but in others we can sit back and make it 4-5-1 using the likes of Milner or an upgrade on Garcia to cover the defensive roles. It's all variations of the same basic formation, but the differing roles used and players within those roles are the key. For example, pushing Yaya further forwards at half-time onto Lahm and slotting Milner in with Fern means that we have a man further forward, we have a battering ram up there who does make the opposition nervous and although it sounds strange we actually sacrifice Yaya in order to give the other players some respite, a little, space and time to start moving the ball. If Yaya gets the ball and just runs, Bayern naturally will take a step back. It might have worked, it might not, it's just an idea. You can see looking at teams maps that formations rarely seem to follow those rigid team sheet shapes you see pre-match. Teams evolve slightly into an effective pattern, Bayern's fluidity made them so effective. If you look at Dortmund v Marseille, you can see the natural defence that has been built into that team that has been designed to combat the likes of Bayern, with Bender and Sahin holding to not allow Bayern to get lots of space in those advanced areas. Forcing Schweinsteiger and Kroos deeper and making it a tighter game. I think 4-2-3-1 is our best option, just because of the interchangeable and flexible nature it brings and the cover it can also provide.

In really attacking games it can look:

--------Fern-------Yaya--------------------

Silva-------Nasri------Jovetic---------

--------------Aguero--------------------

In games where we need to be tight:

------------Fern-----Milner--------------

--Navas------Yaya--------Silva--------

------------------Negredo--------------

And dare I say, but you have to think of pairings to suit how you want to get round the opposition. If we need the width and pace of Navas it's an idea to play Jimmy or even Kolarov, to provide the balance as there's no point allowing what Bayern did and shutting Navas off so that even if he got the ball he ran off with it and had no one to pass it to. That came because the strikers were too close together allowing Bayern to cut them off and Nasri, Fern and Yaya were too close and thus any passing attempts could be shut down without them getting the ball out as far as it needed to to get to the strikers or Navas. Playing 2 different wing styles against a top team is risky, against lesser teams it will work on ability's sake and possession, against top teams they can respond and shut it down.

 

[supercity88]

.

Like I say, don't think enough time has elapsed to deliver a verdict on either him as a person or a manager.

Its hard to dispute that he hasn't had enough time.

The trouble is I can't remember a City manager ever personally having a match as bad as he did on Wednesday. There probably are numerous instances but none that I can recall.

We've obviously had far worse managers, at least 95% of them. And we've had managers make barmier decisions, playing the keeper at centre forward, keeping the ball in the corner etc. But I can't remember seeing a City manager's reputation take such a battering during the course of a single game in the same way

If we win the league, qualify for the CL knock out stage, this game might be forgotten. But if we have a mixed season I suspect this game will undermine him, keep being brought up.

Has a previous City manager ever sent a team out in as big a game against as good a side as Pellegrini did?!! I don't understand why people are ranting and raving so much, yes mistakes were clearly made, but we did better than Barca managed against them at home last season! Positive people, positives!

But in all seriousness, I think it is plainly obvious tactically and performance wise we didn't do well. Hart and Clichy made mistakes and we just had an off day. We didn't make the most of home advantage and didn't put them under pressure. We played like the away team, failed to get a foot on the ball and didn't respond. After the half time we were on top for 5 mins and needed to make more of that. As it was another error and the game was over. Poor performances by most of the players. But it was Bayern, and I wasn't expecting much. If we get the same result and performance against Everton I will ask more questions.

 

[Colins Bellend]

We have only played one good team this season up to now and got smashed, Let's see what happens tomorrow because theyre not a bad side

 

[VOOMER]

Regardless of how I feel about the whole Mancini issue, Pelli is not to blame, that aside a couple of things are clear. Edin is now just a back up player. We need a real challenge for Hart. Pelli, if he's still here in January, must be backed.

 

[Ducado]

We have only played one good team this season up to now and got smashed, Let's see what happens tomorrow because theyre not a bad side

I would not say United are not a good team

 

[the goats backside]

As i said before, forgive me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression he was brought in so we could get to the next level, Europe. So this bollox about time does not work for him, you get 6 games and he needs to be judged after those, when all said and done this is probably the least hardest group we have been in since we got into the tournament, non qualification is a no go. I should have come out the game on Wednesday thinking wow, what a team Bayern are, i didn't, i came out thinking, how effing naive was that, Having said all that finishing no worse than 4th in the league is a huge must so he better pretty quick realise we play 1 up top or otherwise Cardiff and Villa could become the norm. Let's hope Silva has been able to use this injury as a break from football that he desperately needed and comes back the way he played his first season, right now, we and Pelligrini need that

 

[FantasyIreland]

We have only played one good team this season up to now and got smashed, Let's see what happens tomorrow because theyre not a bad side

A proper WUM.

 

[stony]

We have only played one good team this season up to now and got smashed, Let's see what happens tomorrow because theyre not a bad side

A proper WUM.

Who are the other good teams we've played ?