Diversity complaints

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

This PC bollox won't stop until we've built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land.

But there'll be someone who has historical evidence that it was built with 'slave' labour.

 

[KS55]

It is true to say that the right has never fought it.

Every progressive movement, the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, the welfare state, the abortion act, have all stemmed from the liberal/socialist progressive side of politics.

Perhaps the one exception is the decriminalisation of homosexuality, that battle was won on the playing fields of Eton. Even today, it is one of the few pieces of progressive legislation that was way ahead of public opinion.

A huge generalisation and hard to support. While the left have been responsible for many great reforms, it is historically inaccurate to say "every progressive movement.......have all stemmed from the liberal/ socialist...side of politics."
You quote the the abolition of slavery. The long campaign was led by William Wilberforce. Even tho' he was an independent MP, his personal leaning was to the right and he was a lifelong friend and confidant of Pitt the Younger. His motlvation stemmed from religious belief, not political considerations.
Similarly, the greatest, perhaps, British reformer in the 19th century was the Earl of Shaftesbury with a hugely varied string of reforms from Factory Acts to the treatment of mental health. He was absolutely a Tory.
As for Homosexuality, you have to go back to the Spectator magazine in the early 50s for the first, and relentless, campaign for legalisation.
The editor was Iain Gilmour, a tory. That mag has a long tradition of supporting reform from a position on the radical right. See, eg, its support for the The Tolpuddle Martyrs.
Everybody wants to be associated with great social reform, but you should not swallow myths and propaganda, but rather study the facts.

 

[BlueHammer85]

What's the difference between Britains gottalent and the X factor?

X factor is singing only.

BGT is for anything else , getting a dog to do a handstand for example.

 

[KS55]

But there'll be someone who has historical evidence that it was built with 'slave' labour.

It was, it absolutely was.

 

[purplenose]

I think a lot of black people are sick and tired of having racism pushed in their faces day and night, for sure.

I am sure they are, there are an awful lot of other people suffer prejudice on a daily basis in the UK. Non of it is acceptable in any way shape or form. I believe that in the case of racism by and large it was heading in the right direction in this country. This mass outcry of recent years will not achieve anything other than divide people further breed more resentment and suspicion.

Most people are not racist, there has always been a minority and that minority will remain in every race no matter what sadly. You will not cleanse the world or even the UK from idiots. Particularly by allowing one set of idiots free reign and impunity.

 

[bert38]

Obviously this is a very dicey topic so I will do my best as to not offend anyone (good luck with that one!) Lol The main problem that I think many people are having at the moment is BLM is so divided in what it actually wants and believes within itself. They are very picky who they fight for too in terms of black people being killed. On one hand you have a BLM USA that is extremely provocative and causing absolute bedlam over there which has resulted largely in the messege being lost in America. BLM UK came out and said they are not affiliated with the USA BLM or the extreme BLM branches that we have here In the UK and do not hold the same beliefs they do politically or agree about defunding police. BLM UK also stated they do not have a go fund me page so where the hell is the money going to for the other BLM groups because they have never stated? I heard someone saying the other day and it was a very valid point about the civil rights movement in the 1960's and the fact there were lots of black justice groups like the The Black Panthers, Black power and CORE and many others who all fought for black rights. There were many groups fighting for rights but had their own ideals of what they wanted and people knew what each one of the groups represented. BLM seems to have monopolised black rights and black voices and has become the main spokesperson for the black community and the general perception among the public now is that BLM want to defund police and dismantle capitalism so when someone wears that logo and says they support BLM it comes across that they support that goal and it superceeds the real and most important messege here which is to end injustice and racism. BLM needs to say that if you are going to use our logo or slogan then this is what we believe and want from you and if you do not share our values then do not wear our logo imo. Until that happens I think division between BLM and the general public will continue as division exists within BLM. Like I say, I'm all for fighting racism but defunding police and taking down government not so much.

Perhaps I should add that I find racism completely abhorrent-members of my team are often subjected to it by utter idiots. My argument has always been the police are the wrong target. The overwhelming majority are brave, decent and fair and join to do their best in protecting people and locking bad guys up. We aren't politicians, nor are we to blame for societal problems leading to a skewed and disadvantaged population. We often only pick up the pieces.

 

[missing person]

The group diversity seem very "diverse".

Alarm bells ring when they bring this sort of stuff on to prime time tv.

 

[The perfect fumble]

A huge generalisation and hard to support. While the left have been responsible for many great reforms, it is historically inaccurate to say "every progressive movement.......have all stemmed from the liberal/ socialist...side of politics."
You quote the the abolition of slavery. The long campaign was led by William Wilberforce. Even tho' he was an independent MP, his personal leaning was to the right and he was a lifelong friend and confidant of Pitt the Younger. His motlvation stemmed from religious belief, not political considerations.
Similarly, the greatest, perhaps, British reformer in the 19th century was the Earl of Shaftesbury with a hugely varied string of reforms from Factory Acts to the treatment of mental health. He was absolutely a Tory.
As for Homosexuality, you have to go back to the Spectator magazine in the early 50s for the first, and relentless, campaign for legalisation.
The editor was Iain Gilmour, a tory. That mag has a long tradition of supporting reform from a position on the radical right. See, eg, its support for the The Tolpuddle Martyrs.
Everybody wants to be associated with great social reform, but you should not swallow myths and propaganda, but rather study the facts.

And you should study my post.

I stated that the exception to the rule was the decriminalisation of homosexuality. Homosexuality, unlike grinding poverty and inherited wealth, is a state of being that pays no mind to social class or status.

You're right, Wilberforce, despite being an independent MP, was deeply conservative when it came to challenges to the existing political and social order. He advocated change in society through Christianity and improvement in morals, education and religion, he was an evangelical Christian, it was from these foundations that the campaign for the abolition of slavery was rooted. Similarly he founded the Society for the Suppression of Vice as a remedy for the rising tide of immorality.The proclamation setting the society up commanded the prosecution of those guilty of "excessive drinking, blasphemy, profane swearing and cursing, lewdness, profanation of the Lord's Day, and other dissolute, immoral, or disorderly practices".

Wilberforce's involvement in the abolition movement was motivated by a desire to put his Christian principles into action and to serve God in public life. He and other evangelicals were horrified by what they perceived was a depraved and un-Christian trade, and the greed and avarice of the owners and traders. Wilberforce sensed a call from God, writing in a journal entry in 1787 that "God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and the Reformation of Manners (moral values).

Clearly Wilberforce was no socialist, but does he stem from the liberal progressive wing of politics? I think I have to agree with you he does not. Social reform, brought about by adherence to a religion is not exactly common, but good works is, and it was a desire to do right by all gods creatures that motivated Wilberforce and that's why, in addition to his work on slavery and loose morals, he had a hand in the foundation of the RSPCA.

As for various reforms in the Victorian period, they were, for the most part, motivated by either Christian virtue, self serving philanthropy, political necessity or common sense. I would argue that none of these reforms were motivated by right wing ideology, even if their advocates might have been conservatives.

The example I use for a conundrums like this is Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon Johnson was the most progressive post war US President, the list of groundbreaking progressive policies he championed is breathtaking, yet he was not himself a progressive and pursued the Vietnam war with vigour.

Johnson's politics was informed by his experiences with the pitifully poor in his youth, hence he had a burning desire to address their condition. He was a ruthless politician, smart enough to know which way the wind was blowing, and most importantly,Vietnam notwithstanding, he had the strength to know when something just made sense.

 

[KS55]

Thanks for your very full response. Worth adding that USA has a long tradition of reform motivated by relgious considerations.
I was not suggesting right wing dogma as the root of the reforms I gave as examples, merely that they could not be termed as being motivated by socialist/ liberal concerns.
There has, I believe, work been done on whether ppl of a religious disposition have a greater record of altruism than ppl of a secular bent, with most research concluding that the records are similar.
Early studies on the human genome failed to find the 'god gene', fwiw.
Cheers.
PS. I Took your point about homosexuality, I was just adding some context. Not sure how much support Gilmour got to start with.

 

[feedthegoat27]

I think the problem is many people are sick and tired of having BLM and racism pushed in their faces day and night.

People have simply had enough of it, you cannot watch sport or TV without some message being force fed to you.

I honestly think its actually making people racist or at least less prone to mix and integrate. Added too which many feel with some justification BLM are a radical and racist organisation themselves. Equally there are many such as myself who resent them going out on the streets mid pandemic put all and sundry at risk.

As for football I do think there is just a bit much of this "spreading awareness" via the game. Let people watch a game at the ground or on TV without something being force fed. Before anyone pipes up I myself am in a group of people whom football has been used to highlight. Also I am not saying not in the right measures....but at the moment its overkill and counter productive in my opinion.

Cannot believe you haven't been pulled up for this absurd comment already.