Donald Trump

[lasereyes]

No, the counterpoint to your article was the article itself.

Sorry bud you lost me. The BBC article looked to me to be refuting a point I never made.

 

[lasereyes]

Counterpoint.

Umbrella Man: Minneapolis police link suspect to white supremacists

The man was pictured smashing the windows of an AutoZone store in the city during protests.

www.bbc.co.uk

It would have been a counterpoint if I had said right wing groups don't incite violence. But I said the opposite.

 

[andyhinch]

Ever felt like a thread is going round in circles ?

 

[The blue phantom]

He's a fucking fat-cat leach himself.

Maybe but that tweet is absolutely spot on.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Yes I agree the original comment is incorrect. But I can't agree that the left incites violence at a lower rate. I've watched 3+ months of American cities burning with federal buildings being burnt down. Very little of that seems to be from right wing groups. Now as others have pointed out, there has been plenty of right wing supremacist violence at other times (e.g. Charlottesville). I've not done a scientific tally, but what I see is both parties being ravaged by extremists and very little centrist discourse and policy-making. I blame both parties for this.

That is outsized coverage from media outlets (which does include sources like BBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc) because it either gets more viewers (thus more advertising revenue) or it suits a political agenda. Such coverage is then amplified by the Trump regime (recently specifically AG Barr, DHS, and Republican sycophants) to justify their actions against democratic municipalities and states. The rate of property damage and violence by left-leaning groups (or really during protests in general) is much smaller than depicted and some of the violence and property destruction has actually been undertaken by individuals with connections to far right groups posing as leftists. There has been some violence and property destruction by far left groups, to be sure, but it is not proportional to the actions of far right groups.

I posted this earlier in response to your article, but you may have understandably missed it in the mad rush this thread has become tonight — this is a blurb from the article you posted, which is accurate to everything I have read from both credible media and law enforcement agencies. The article itself you posted is not about actual violence, but rather increasing memes and online messaging from the left that seemingly advocate violence and how that *may* lead to increased violence (not that it has already).

“The report acknowledges that left-wing political actors, including those who embrace the antifa movement, have been responsible for far less violence than white supremacists and other right-wing ones — a finding consistent with the conclusions of law enforcement and other threat analysts.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/14/violent-antipolice-memes-surge/

 

[SebastianBlue]

Ever felt like a thread is going round in circles ?

That’s because @mat, @Trevor Morley's Tache, and I are ‘alt ring wingers’. ;-)

Edit: originally quoted the wrong post!

 

[SebastianBlue]

Just another great summary of what most of us have been saying in here for ages.

 

[lasereyes]

That is outsized coverage from media outlets (which, does included sources like BBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc) because it either gets more viewers (thus more advertising revenue) or it suits a political agenda. Such coverage is then amplified by the Trump regime (recently specifically AG Barr, DHS, and Republican sycophants) to justify their actions against democratic municipalities and states. The rate of property damage and violence by left-leaning groups is much smaller than depicted and some of the violence and property destructions has actually been undertaken by individuals with connections to far right groups posing as leftist groups. There has been some violence and property destruction by far left groups, to be sure, but it is not proportional to the actions of far right groups.

I posted this earlier in response to your article, but you may have understandably missed in the mad rush this thread has become tonight — this is blurb from the article you posted, which is accurate to everything I have read from both credible media and law enforcement agencies. The article itself is not about actual violence, but rather increasing memes and online messaging from the left that seemingly advocate violence and how that *may* lead to increased violence (not that it has already).

“The report acknowledges that left-wing political actors, including those who embrace the antifa movement, have been responsible for far less violence than white supremacists and other right-wing ones — a finding consistent with the conclusions of law enforcement and other threat analysts.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/14/violent-antipolice-memes-surge/

"That is outsized coverage from media outlets (which, does included sources like BBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc) because it either gets more viewers (thus more advertising revenue) or it suits a political agenda."
Actually, the opposite is true. The likes of CNN and MSNBC for many weeks insisted that the protests were "mostly peaceful" when cities were literally incinerating. That's when news unfortunately becomes propaganda.

CNN Mocked For Reporting "Fiery But Mostly Peaceful Protests" With Burning Riot In Background

CNN's Omar Jimenez reported Wednesday evening from Kenosha, Wisconsin.

www.realclearpolitics.com

"The rate of property damage and violence by left-leaning groups is much smaller than depicted and some of the violence and property destructions has actually been undertaken by individuals with connections to far right groups posing as leftist groups"
How do you know this - what is your source?

I'm glad you read the Washington Post article and the phrase you quoted is important. As I read it, the point they are making (and remember they are left leaning) is that historically there has been more violence-inciting by right wing groups (I haven't seen stats but very likely true) but that things are changing. The BLM movement is pretty much based on the Malcolm X principle that peaceful change will never occur - it has to be forced through violence. You may or may not agree with that (and it's a hugely complicated topic) - but it is the way things are going currently. The days of Gandhi or MLK are long gone.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Just another great summary of what most of us have been saying in here for ages.

I suspected the NYT have had his tax returns for a while but were tied up legally from using them. Seems the shackles are off.

 

[lasereyes]

Just another great summary of what most of us have been saying in here for ages.

Not sure why you think this should move the polls? Firstly, it's old news. Secondly, it doesn't show Trump as breaking any laws. You can criticize the US tax code off of that, but he is hardly alone in taking advantage of it. That well known corporate fat-cat Bernie Sanders paid a princely 13% tax rate on income of well over $200k in his disclosed tax returns.

 

[SebastianBlue]

"That is outsized coverage from media outlets (which, does included sources like BBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc) because it either gets more viewers (thus more advertising revenue) or it suits a political agenda."
Actually, the opposite is true. The likes of CNN and MSNBC for many weeks insisted that the protests were "mostly peaceful" when cities were literally incinerating. That's when news unfortunately becomes propaganda.

CNN Mocked For Reporting "Fiery But Mostly Peaceful Protests" With Burning Riot In Background

CNN's Omar Jimenez reported Wednesday evening from Kenosha, Wisconsin.

www.realclearpolitics.com

I live in the US and have family, friends, and colleagues that live in various places around the country, many that have consistently had protests and demonstrations...

The cities, even the ones seeing violence and property damage, were not “incinerating”. It really has been substantially exaggerated.

And CNN and MSNBC have absolutely played on the violence and rioting, it just not in the same way OANN or Fox have been. It is the nature of media and the play for attention.

Also, Real Clear Politics is not a source I would be using to substantiate any position.

"The rate of property damage and violence by left-leaning groups is much smaller than depicted and some of the violence and property destructions has actually been undertaken by individuals with connections to far right groups posing as leftist groups"
How do you know this - what is your source?

About 93% of racial justice protests in the US have been peaceful, a new report finds

The report, released Thursday, contradicts assumptions and claims by some that protests associated with the Black Lives Matter movement are spawning violence and destruction of property.

www.cnn.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/06/17/trump-warns-leftist-violence-dangerous-threat-emerges-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/

White supremacists pose as Antifa online, call for violence

A Twitter account that tweeted a call to violence and claimed to be representing the position of "Antifa" was in fact created by a known white supremacist group, Twitter said Monday. The company removed the account.

www.cnn.com

Many Claim Extremists Are Sparking Protest Violence. But Which Extremists? (Published 2020)

Amid a rush to assign blame for violence and vandalism, accusations that extremists or outside agitators were behind the destruction ricocheted online and on the airwaves.

www.nytimes.com

I'm glad you read the Washington Post article and the phrase you quoted is important. As I read it, the point they are making (and remember they are left leaning) is that historically there has been more violence-inciting by right wing groups (I haven't seen stats but very likely true) but that things are changing. The BLM movement is pretty much based on the Malcolm X principle that peaceful change will never occur - it has to be forced through violence. You may or may not agree with that (and it's a hugely complicated topic) - but it is the way things are going currently. The days of Gandhi or MLK are long gone.

We weren’t arguing where things could be going, we were arguing what has happened, and that is very different to the original baseless assertion made.

And I do think it is a very bold claim to say “it is the way things are going” regarding rising left violence relative to right/far right violence, as it is in the face of the FBI, most other major law enforcement agencies’, and scholarly guidance about far right and white supremeist groups being a far greater terrorist threat to the US than far left groups.

The FBI warned for years that police are cozy with the far right. Is no one listening? | Mike German

I was an FBI agent who infiltrated white supremacists. Too many local police don’t take the far right seriously – or actively sympathize

www.theguardian.com

Intelligence bulletin warning of protest-related violence makes little mention of 'antifa'

New intel bulletin points to white supremacists and other would-be domestic terrorists, not "antifa," as the main problem lurking behind potentially lethal violence.

abcnews.go.com

I do agree that *general* violence is absolutely likely to rise in the next three months (or more), though. However, for me, that is more due to the Trump regime’s attempts to move the US to authoritarianism and subvert the election.

Perhaps we agree on that point and are just saying it in different ways, though?

 

[SebastianBlue]

Not sure why you think this should move the polls? Firstly, it's old news. Secondly, it doesn't show Trump as breaking any laws. You can criticize the US tax code off of that, but he is hardly alone in taking advantage of it. That well known corporate fat-cat Bernie Sanders paid a princely 13% tax rate on income of well over $200k in his disclosed tax returns.

The point of posting the thread is that it *won’t* move the polls for Trump supporters.

And while everyone that has been paying attention knows Trump has been lying about his wealth for most of his life (we’ve discussed his financial fraud and issues at length in this thread, with @Trevor Morley's Tache and I taking a special interest, hence the inside jokes tonight), the NYT story is very much breaking news, as it is the first time a reputable outlet has actually analysed his tax returns publicly.

Many of us already knew much of what they have initially reported via other investigations from other sources, but the totality of it — as well as the public dissemination — is a huge event. Not to mention the NYT has said there will be more analysis to follow, so who knows if there will be new insights to be had.

 

[lasereyes]

I live in the US and have family, friends, and colleagues that live in various places around the country, many that have consistently had protests and demonstrations...

The cities, even the ones seeing violence and property damage, were not “incinerating”. It really has been substantially exaggerated.

And CNN and MSNBC have absolutely played on the violence and rioting, it just not in the same way OANN or Fox have been. It is the nature of media and the play for attention.

Also, Real Clear Politics is not a source I would be using to substantiate any position.

About 93% of racial justice protests in the US have been peaceful, a new report finds

The report, released Thursday, contradicts assumptions and claims by some that protests associated with the Black Lives Matter movement are spawning violence and destruction of property.

www.cnn.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/06/17/trump-warns-leftist-violence-dangerous-threat-emerges-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/

White supremacists pose as Antifa online, call for violence

A Twitter account that tweeted a call to violence and claimed to be representing the position of "Antifa" was in fact created by a known white supremacist group, Twitter said Monday. The company removed the account.

www.cnn.com

Many Claim Extremists Are Sparking Protest Violence. But Which Extremists? (Published 2020)

Amid a rush to assign blame for violence and vandalism, accusations that extremists or outside agitators were behind the destruction ricocheted online and on the airwaves.

www.nytimes.com

We weren’t arguing where things could be going, we were arguing what has happened, and that is very different to the original baseless assertion made.

And I do think it is a very bold claim to say “it is the way things are going” regarding rising left violence relative to right/far right violence, as it is in the face of the FBI, most other major law enforcement agencies., and scholarly guidance about far right and white supremeist groups being a far greater terrorist threat to the US than far left groups.

The FBI warned for years that police are cozy with the far right. Is no one listening? | Mike German

I was an FBI agent who infiltrated white supremacists. Too many local police don’t take the far right seriously – or actively sympathize

www.theguardian.com

Intelligence bulletin warning of protest-related violence makes little mention of 'antifa'

New intel bulletin points to white supremacists and other would-be domestic terrorists, not "antifa," as the main problem lurking behind potentially lethal violence.

abcnews.go.com

I do agree that *general* violence is absolutely likely to rise in the next three months (or more), though. However, for me, that is more due to the Trump regime’s attempts to move the US to authoritarianism and subvert the election.

Perhaps we agree on that point and are just saying it in different ways, though?

There's a lot in your post - let me try to respond to your main points,

1. RealClearPolitics is not a source per se - it is a news aggregator. If you look at their content, you will find pretty much an equal balance of left sourced and right sourced articles. But I wasn't citing any opinion - but a video where a CNN reporter stands in front of a virtual inferno and claims the protest is "mostly peaceful". They were fairly roundly ridiculed for this report; but this unfortunately typifies their decline as a reliable source of news.

CNN is rated as left-biased (not left-leaning) with a "mixed" fact rating. That's a massive fall from grace from an organization that was one of the gold standards of news reporting when I came to US a couple of decades ago.

CNN - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

2. On whether CNN/MSNBC are playing on the violence, we will have to agree to disagree. I see 180 degrees opposite - they suppressed the extent of violence for weeks because it suited their political agenda.

3. As to whether cities are incinerating - I'm going by my own eyes so yes it's subjective. But what is irrefutable is that violent crime is up in 2020 in most major cities:



This is a very worrying trend and it's the case in all cities where there have been BLM protests turnin violent. Seattle and Portland are right up there also - Seattle in August passed its total homicide rate for the whole of 2019.

4. "93% of BLM protests are peaceful" - this is a classic bogus statistic IMO. What is a protest? An organized march of 1000 people? How about if 3 people walk down a road for 15 minutes holding a cardboard sign? There is no absolute standard, so you can produce pretty much whatever percentage you want. And who is to say the source of that study was unbiased? All we know is that by their own stats, there have been more than 700 violent protests in a few months. And that's a lot in anyone's book.

Btw, I am not defending the original assertion which I didn't agree with either. Also, I respect your views on this - as I do all Bluemooners.

 

[SebastianBlue]

There's a lot in your post - let me try to respond to your main points,

1. RealClearPolitics is not a source per se - it is a news aggregator. If you look at their content, you will find pretty much an equal balance of left sourced and right sourced articles. But I wasn't citing any opinion - but a video where a CNN reporter stands in front of a virtual inferno and claims the protest is "mostly peaceful". They were fairly roundly ridiculed for this report; but this unfortunately typifies their decline as a reliable source of news.

CNN is rated as left-biased (not left-leaning) with a "mixed" fact rating. That's a massive fall from grace from an organization that was one of the gold standards of news reporting when I came to US a couple of decades ago.

CNN - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

2. On whether CNN/MSNBC are playing on the violence, we will have to agree to disagree. I see 180 degrees opposite - they suppressed the extent of violence for weeks because it suited their political agenda.

3. As to whether cities are incinerating - I'm going by my own eyes so yes it's subjective. But what is irrefutable is that violent crime is up in 2020 in most major cities:

View attachment 2972

This is a very worrying trend and it's the case in all cities where there have been BLM protests turnin violent. Seattle and Portland are right up there also - Seattle in August passed its total homicide rate for the whole of 2019.

4. "93% of BLM protests are peaceful" - this is a classic bogus statistic IMO. What is a protest? An organized march of 1000 people? How about if 3 people walk down a road for 15 minutes holding a cardboard sign? There is no absolute standard, so you can produce pretty much whatever percentage you want. And who is to say the source of that study was unbiased? All we know is that by their own stats, there have been more than 700 violent protests in a few months. And that's a lot in anyone's book.

Btw, I am not defending the original assertion which I didn't agree with either. Also, I respect your views on this - as I do all Bluemooners.

I think, as @andyhinch put it earlier, we may be going round in circles at this point, as we do have some fundamental disagreements (and likely different understandings/perspectives) in a couple of areas that make it difficult to discuss the various subjects without continually making the same points with no compromise.

With that in mind, I am happy to simple say we can agree to disagree. If only to save everyone else from having to scroll past our long responses to each other. :-)

 

[SWP's back]

Not sure why you think this should move the polls? Firstly, it's old news. Secondly, it doesn't show Trump as breaking any laws. You can criticize the US tax code off of that, but he is hardly alone in taking advantage of it. That well known corporate fat-cat Bernie Sanders paid a princely 13% tax rate on income of well over $200k in his disclosed tax returns.

He up-values his assets for bank loans and down-values them for his tax returns. That’s tax evasion, insurance fraud and bank fraud and it is indeed very illegal and that’s why Trump has tried to go SCOTUS (and lost) to halt his tax returns being subpoenaed by SDNY. But you knew that.

D.A. Is Investigating Trump and His Company Over Fraud, Filing Suggests (Published 2020)

The office of the district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance Jr., made the disclosure in a new court filing arguing Mr. Trump’s accountants should turn over his tax returns.

www.nytimes.com

And it’s not exactly a secret that only I know about:



But aside from that, if you’d actually read the NYT piece you’d have read some interesting little excerpts:

“The $72.9 million refund has since become the subject of a long-running battle with the I.R.S.

When applying for the refund, he cited a giant financial loss that may be related to the failure of his Atlantic City casinos. Publicly, he also claimed that he had fully surrendered his stake in the casinos.

But the real story may be different from the one he told. Federal law holds that investors can claim a total loss on an investment, as Mr. Trump did, only if they receive nothing in return. Mr. Trump did appear to receive something in return: 5 percent of the new casino company that formed when he renounced his stake.

In 2011, the I.R.S. began an audit reviewing the legitimacy of the refund. Almost a decade later, the case remains unresolved, for unknown reasons, and could ultimately end up in federal court, where it could become a matter of public record.”

You still sure he hasn’t done anything illegal?

And even if you leave the illegality out of the equation, we’re still looking at THE worst business owner in America. He has lost more money in the last decade than any other American alive, that hardly chimes with his self-portrayal as a successful businessman. He has hundreds of millions of dollars of loans due within the next four years and he doesn’t have the cash, nor assets, to repay those loans. He is in effect, bankrupt (financially as well as morally).

 

[SWP's back]

Okay, so what part of what I said is bollox?

The words.

 

[SWP's back]

Trump supporters aren't the ones inciting violence at rallies, the left are.

How often do you see the left in paramilitary garb?



How often do you see them armed to the teeth?




How often do you see them acting as the SS/Brownshirts and illegally stopping citizens?

 

[SWP's back]

If ever a hot mic summed up 2/3rds of the country.

 

[Vic]

Not sure why you think this should move the polls? Firstly, it's old news. Secondly, it doesn't show Trump as breaking any laws. You can criticize the US tax code off of that, but he is hardly alone in taking advantage of it. That well known corporate fat-cat Bernie Sanders paid a princely 13% tax rate on income of well over $200k in his disclosed tax returns.

So that would be $25,250 more than the $750 paid by Trump.

 

[Lupo]

Can you imagine one of our newsreaders saying grabbing by the pussy lol

Nina Hossain please