England v Belgium | Friendly | Match Thread

hilts said:
So player A

Has great game comes off and thanks you for saying he played well

Player B

Has great game comes off and says i know I was good I'm always good.

You say I like the arrogance that player A will never make it he just not twattish enough.

Horse shit. Coaches would like to fuck off player B but they would end up playing well elsewhere.

We could throw in confidence which I feel we woukd be more likely to agree on. Arrogance and confidence are close bedfellows but there is a difference.
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Why are you assuming the arrogant player would act like Player B and not Player A?

Are we using the common definition of arrogance? Maybe I am misunderstanding what some people are meaning by a player being “arrogant”?

Edit: this is the definition I am using, which is separate from selfishness, dickishness, or lack of commitment.

1. : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner.
 
SebastianBlue said:
Talent and hard work are absolutely important, we agree on that.

But to get the attention, which gives you the coaching and promotion needed to progress to the next development stage, most kids that aren’t children of ex-footballers or managers, need what people on here call arrogance to make it through the brutal gauntlet. It’s a filtering effect that happens at every stage, up to U18, then the other qualities tend to start becoming dominant.

By then, though, most of the players have the natural arrogance, and keep it to stay at the top.

David Silva, Kev, Kompany, Haaland, Stones, even selfless stalwart Gareth Barry had it. They might be humble off the pitch, but they are arrogant as footballers, because they had/have to be.
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My experience was that certain schools, club teams and coaches have considerable advantages when it comes to the England schoolboys set-up, which is where you get into the system.

It is such a clique, it’s easy to see how English coaches who have done very little elsewhere can get their feet under the table. Once inside the tent, you just have to say and do the right thing for the Old Boys Network and you have a job for life.

The entire England set up seems SO risk averse and everyone in power seems to be looking for the Steady Eddie who minds his P’s and Q’s, and has “inside” references…at least it was when I was involved.

I remember some Liverpool prospect swanning into Lilleshall a couple of days after everyone else and the whole coaching staff sucking his dick on the sidelines while we were playing a squad game. Everyone playing was “Who the fuck is that?” because no-one knew him, but it was clear he was already an insider. There was also clearly a southern bias to the numbers of players from there versus up north.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
My experience was that certain schools, club teams and coaches have considerable advantages when it comes to the England schoolboys set-up, which is where you get into the system.

It is such a clique, it’s easy to see how English coaches who have done very little elsewhere can get their feet under the table. Once inside the tent, you just have to say and do the right thing for the Old Boys Network and you have a job for life.

The entire England set up seems SO risk averse and everyone in power seems to be looking for the Steady Eddie who minds his P’s and Q’s, and has “inside” references…at least it was when I was involved.

I remember some Liverpool prospect swanning into Lilleshall a couple of days after everyone else and the whole coaching staff sucking his dick on the sidelines while we were playing a squad game. Everyone playing was “Who the fuck is that?” because no-one knew him, but it was clear he was already an insider. There was also clearly a southern bias to the numbers of players from there versus up north.
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It was my experience, as well.

I have probably taken up too much of this thread defending my assertion about Rodri and other world class footballers like him, so I won’t share my stories from my academy days (both in England and Spain).

But I have some juicy ones. The kids of ex-footballers were almost always the biggest cunts, I will say that. But most of us by the time we hit U14 were pretty arrogant. And we definitely had to stay that way, because the amount of negative feedback you get (and the setbacks you can experience) can be soul crushing without it.

Seems sort of hilarious to think about now, given my current state.
 
SebastianBlue said:
It was my experience, as well.

I have probably taken up too much of this thread defending my assertion about Rodri and other world class footballers like him, so I won’t share my stories from my academy days (both in England and Spain).

But I have some juicy ones. The kids of ex-footballers were almost always the biggest cunts, I will say that. But most of us by the time we hit U14 were pretty arrogant. And we definitely had to stay that way, because the amount of negative feedback you get (and the setbacks you can experience) can be soul crushing without it.

Seems sort of hilarious to think about now, given my current state.
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As the kid of an ex-footballer, I hope I was the exception that proves the rule. I can only imagine Steve Kinsey’s Dad was an ex-player, based on his attitude when I was at City with him. (I expect someone will now tell me what a great guy he is!) :-)

P.S. Rodri is world class humble, on and off the field. My current favorite City player.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
As the kid of an ex-footballer, I hope I was the exception that proves the rule. I can only imagine Steve Kinsey’s Dad was an ex-player, based on his attitude when I was at City with him. (I expect someone will now tell me what a great guy he is!) :-)

P.S. Rodri is world class humble, on and off the field. My current favorite City player.
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Haha, I am sure you were among the few decent lads from the ex-footballer gene pool.

And Rodri is just so damn intelligent and suave he can hide the fiery arrogance (like most Spaniards). ;-)
 
SebastianBlue said:
Arrogance is completely separate from commitment and effort (or selflessness), which I agree are all qualities that are absolutely necessary to become successful in a team sport.

You can be arrogant and have all of those other attributes, as well.

And, in fact, most “successful” people across vocations would be classified by most as arrogant, so I am not sure where you are getting this “arrogant people don’t become successful” thing from.

Arrogance is heavily tied to perseverance, though, especially when it comes to brutal development tracks like becoming a professional footballer (which 99% of people that attempt it wash out of).

Most footballers simply have to have a very healthy (bordering on exaggerated) since of self worth and importance to make it through the gauntlet.

And the ones that don’t need that are usually the children of ex-footballers that get advantages that players from non-football pedigrees do not, hence why they are able to make it through.
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Disagree mate. It's confidence not arrogance. They back themselves to be the best because they are when it comes to elite football. No point going out there if you don't believe in yourself. I don't think any of them strut around thinking they are better than they are. Most elite footballers would state the likes of De Bruyne as the best midfielder rather than blowing their own trumpet. But you don't see De Bruyne talking about how it's a piece of piss passing the ball the way he does. He is humble about it. Haaland similarly doesn't go around saying he will smash the goal scoring records and destroy everyone. He knows he can improve and misses chances and is humble. But both know they're fucking good because, well, they are.
 
Glaring errors aside that wasn't too bad.

Our midfield looked far more comfortable with a technical ball-playin midfielder like Mainoo next to Rice, than the energizer bunnies Southgate usually favours.

A few observations

Toney is far better than Watkins
I imagine Trippier will be left back at the Euro's, if Chilwell is to play he needs to learn to keep possession and not constantly cross aimlessly.
Other than 2 comical errors, the makeshift back four were okay.
Foden is England's best player, you can see this is the case by how opposition teams treat him.
Was Palmer injured? Is that why Gordon and Maddison came on instead of him?
Southgate needs to stop starting players like Bowen and Rashford in the forward line, they are direct players and are only required in certain situations, their roles should be impact subs and used as such in friendlies.

And as always, for the love of God! Why have we still not seen Foden centrally alongside Bellingham. we were at our most dangerous tonight when he drifted inside and they linked up together.
 
supercity88 said:
Disagree mate. It's confidence not arrogance. They back themselves to be the best because they are when it comes to elite football. No point going out there if you don't believe in yourself. I don't think any of them strut around thinking they are better than they are. Most elite footballers would state the likes of De Bruyne as the best midfielder rather than blowing their own trumpet. But you don't see De Bruyne talking about how it's a piece of piss passing the ball the way he does. He is humble about it. Haaland similarly doesn't go around saying he will smash the goal scoring records and destroy everyone. He knows he can improve and misses chances and is humble. But both know they're fucking good because, well, they are.
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I guess our opinions are just a matter of degree, which is fair enough.

Just from my experience coming up through youth development track as a kid, mere confidence wasn’t enough for most of us to survive the pressure, constant negative feedback, and setbacks (injuries and otherwise), hence my stance.

And based on my experiences in the professional world (after major injury to my knee put an end to any hope I had of playing professionally, even at lower levels), I think that rings true there, as well. It gets more and more brutal the closer you get to the top.

If I am honest, that’s probably why I never made it to those lofty heights—I was never quite arrogant (and ruthless) enough for it. I only had enough to be middle-management. ;-)
 
So much better than the Brazil game. England perform better when they are not scared to go on the front foot. As a squad England are not the most reliable or well-drilled at the back, and this gets exposed when they sit back, a la the Brazil game and countless others under GS. They didn't do this as much against Belgium and it brought out the best in them.

I have to say Mainoo is really impressing me so far, he really makes the difference in this England midfield, a lot of the improvement between the two games is down to him as well, in the Belgium game he made vital tackles, transitions, and set up all the most promising attacking plays. I also liked the little Cruyff-ish turn on him late in the Brazil game.

A lot of the time his team-mates in the same position seem lost, as if they have no gameplan and no vision or imagination to do anything other than a safe one-two, back and forth, side to side without purpose, and then backpass, again without any actual purpose. He doesn't do this, you can see the boy understands the game as it's being played and knows how to respond proactively, open up space and use it.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
My experience was that certain schools, club teams and coaches have considerable advantages when it comes to the England schoolboys set-up, which is where you get into the system.

It is such a clique, it’s easy to see how English coaches who have done very little elsewhere can get their feet under the table. Once inside the tent, you just have to say and do the right thing for the Old Boys Network and you have a job for life.

The entire England set up seems SO risk averse and everyone in power seems to be looking for the Steady Eddie who minds his P’s and Q’s, and has “inside” references…at least it was when I was involved.

I remember some Liverpool prospect swanning into Lilleshall a couple of days after everyone else and the whole coaching staff sucking his dick on the sidelines while we were playing a squad game. Everyone playing was “Who the fuck is that?” because no-one knew him, but it was clear he was already an insider. There was also clearly a southern bias to the numbers of players from there versus up north.
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The picture painted by @ChicagoBlue certainly resonates with me.

The issue is the disconnect between the FA, responsible for the England national sides and the amateur game and the professional game. It is what still holds England back from International success.

It is no accident that better players are coming through to senior level since professional clubs started academies, identifying and coaching their own talent from an early age. Anyone who has played football at a good level as a youngster will recognise the FA "Old Boys Network" whereby the structure is about fitting in and appreciation of those running the game for giving time above excellence. The system meant certain youngsters were given every advantage whilst others however good were ignored or cast off. In essence repeating a recipe for failure.

You only have to look at Peter Swales. His judgement and record whilst running Manchester City was a disaster yet he gained the position of Chairman through links to the FA and got to the top of the greasy pole of the FA as a member of the Selection Commitee.

This is from our own Gary James recording Swales view of Clough, one of the most successful English managers. This mentality was and is still rife in the FA at all levels because they are not judged on results and outcomes.
gjfootballarchive.com

Brian Clough’s Last

On this day (27th February) in 1993 Manchester City defeated Nottingham Forest 2-0 at the City Ground in the Premier League. The scorers were David White and Garry Flitcroft. &…
gjfootballarchive.com gjfootballarchive.com

'I did the last recorded interview with Peter Swales back in 1995-96 and I asked him about Brian Clough and the England job. Swales had been the boss of the FA Selection Committee for many years and Clough never seemed to be given the chance to manage England. Swales responded to my question about Clough by saying words to the effect of ‘We could’ve had Cloughie at England – and at City – but he’d have wanted to run the whole thing. And that was my job.’

In the interview Swales explained that Clough had wanted the City job in 1983 (when Billy McNeill was appointed).
 
SebastianBlue said:
Why are you assuming the arrogant player would act like Player B and not Player A?

Are we using the common definition of arrogance? Maybe I am misunderstanding what some people are meaning by a player being “arrogant”?

Edit: this is the definition I am using, which is separate from selfishness, dickishness, or lack of commitment.

1. : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner.
Click to expand...

I'm always good fits perfectly. You're having a mare move on.
 
Doesnt help Bellingham attitude when you have commentators saying stupid things like 'he is the best in the world at the moment'

I mean do fuck of, what has he won ? Give me Rodri, KDB, Foden over Bellingham. Next we will be told mainoo is the second best player in the world.

if Bellingham played for City he wouldnt even get a mention.
 
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