England v Brazil | Friendly | Match Thread

[Gazza]

Haha, i dont doubt that, i watched married at first sight that i recorded from the night before

I meant one could forget it was on, not you in particular.... although ;-)

 

[supercity88]

I think he was gash, and said as much during the game, but Southgate should have been experimenting, allowing Foden to play in the middle behind Watkins from the start, and Rashford on the right makes the most sense to allow that given the players available and his insistence on starting Gordon.

As I said, experimentation was what should have taken place. Could have ignored Rashford on the right all night, as happened to Foden. ;-)

You've got to have a purpose for the experiment though. Palmer, Bowen and Saka all play wide right effectively for their clubs. We don't need to test Rashford there. He's only ever been effective when wide left for the rags. Foden was shifted as he'll be in the squad so it's worth seeing if he could cover there. Then maybe you only take one of Palmer/Bowen to cover Saka and pick another option elsewhere.

He tried Gallagher alongside Rice and Bellingham which didn't work. I'm hoping he tries a different combination with Rice and Bellingham on Tuesday. I'd like to see Foden one half and maybe Mainoo the next - that's a combination we need to try and nail.

 

[SebastianBlue]

absolutely everyone has a different idea on who to start.
I would have tried Bowen over Gordon or Rashford and maybe tried out Palmer in the middle.

so how can Southgate please everyone?

I proballbly would have done the same. I was just making a suggestion of the most “acceptable” setup for experimentation (the FA was never going to allow such a crazy setup involving no Rag players, after all).

And he can’t please everyone. No manager will.

No one is arguing that a specific manager could please everyone, not even Pep. You are the only one creating that strawman argument to justify your criticism of others criticising Southgate.

The issue currently is he is pleasing almost no one, accept the very small percentage of status quo diehards (and FA sycophants) such as yourself.

 

[mattcity5]

It takes players time to get used to playing a different way, some just aren't capable (see Phillips at City). Southgate doesn't have time to teach players new methods, he needs to work with what he's got.

We'll never see the best of Foden while there are heads down, run fast, blast it merchants like Rashford and Gordon in the team. Foden needs people recycling the ball and being patient, but too many in this team just don't care about possession.

The only way to build a side that gets the best out of home and the other top talents, is to pick players from teams that play a relatively similar way. Happily that means no united or Liverpool in my eyes, so it's a win all round.

 

[SebastianBlue]

You've got to have a purpose for the experiment though. Palmer, Bowen and Saka all play wide right effectively for their clubs. We don't need to test Rashford there. He's only ever been effective when wide left for the rags. Foden was shifted as he'll be in the squad so it's worth seeing if he could cover there. Then maybe you only take one of Palmer/Bowen to cover Saka and pick another option elsewhere.

He tried Gallagher alongside Rice and Bellingham which didn't work. I'm hoping he tries a different combination with Rice and Bellingham on Tuesday. I'd like to see Foden one half and maybe Mainoo the next - that's a combination we need to try and nail.

I would have rather seen Bowen and Palmer, as well. But I was suggesting a more viable setup for experimentation under Southgate. And that includes Foden in the middle behind Watkins, not on the right, as there is nothing to be learned from that, and certainly not when Bellingham and a few others continually refused to pass to Foden for the majority of the match, regardless of whether he was in space or on a decent run.

The setup you and I actually wanted was never, ever going to happen with the FA’s control over Southgate and the squad.

Thus I was trying to present a more realistic selection and tactics that could still present experimentation under Southgate given the players available, the time constraints for making modifications to the system prior to the Euros, and that would allow us to actually learn something from the match.

As opposed to what happened, which was just a waste of a match. Nothing new was learned.

Bellingham is selfish and a primadonna. We already knew that.

Gallagher should be nowhere near the starting eleven in any setup. We already knew that.

Chilwell should be nowhere near the England team. We already knew that.

Gordon is not ready to play at this level. We already knew that.

Maguire is a liability against decent attacking teams, even with Stones cleaning up for him everywhere. We already knew that.

Watkins is not Kane, especially with no selfless creative spark behind him. We already knew that.

Foden is wasted on the right for England, which is desperate for said selfless creative presence in the middle. We already knew that.

Stones is one of the best English players, full stop. We already knew that.

 

[KentBlue]

To me, Southgate comes across as a bit insincere and dishonest, very much like a politician in that he has all the sound bites, and says what he thinks people want to hear, but it's all a pretence: he has a style of play that he adheres to and nothing will ever change that. He's a product of how the game was played in his heyday of the late 80's/early 90's, and he's now so entrenched in his overly-cautious approach that it's impossible for him to change.
The result is that we have to endure this type of dull and unimaginative dross, which is made all the more difficult to watch because we have someone like Pep in charge. I daresay fans of other clubs who still play the old style game don't notice much difference when it comes to England, but we do - and how.

So he'll do his usual PR exercise for the cameras tomorrow and tow the party line, but we know in advance the football will be dire and many people will switch off rather than sit through 90-odd minutes of tedium, but the FA will not be brave enough to replace him this late in the day, so we'll probably come home early from a tournament again and start from scratch.

The sooner the Prem restarts the better.

 

[supercity88]

I would have rather seen Bowen and Palmer, as well. But I was suggesting a more viable setup for experimentation under Southgate. And that includes Foden in the middle behind Watkins, not on the right, as there is nothing to be learned from that, and certainly not when Bellingham and a few others continually refused to pass to Foden for the majority of the match, regardless of whether he was in space or on a decent run.

The setup you and I actually wanted was never, ever going to happen with the FA’s control over Southgate and the squad.

Thus I was trying to present a more realistic selection and tactics that could still present experimentation under Southgate given the players available and allow us to learn something from the match.

As opposed to what happened, which was just a waste of a match. Nothing new was learned.

Bellingham is selfish and a primadonna. We already knew that.

Gallagher should be nowhere near the starting eleven in any setup. We already knew that.

Gordon is not ready to play at this level. We already knew that.

Maguire is a liability against decent attacking teams, even with Stones cleaning up for him everywhere. We already knew that.

Watkins is not Kane, especially with no selfless creative spark behind him. We already knew that.

Foden is wasted on the right for England, which is desperate for said selfless creative presence in the middle. We already knew that.

Stones is one of the best English players, full stop. We already knew that.

I'm not sure what the point would be in experimenting if we already know so much! We know Foden is good in the middle, so why try him there? See if he's good on the right!

Ultimately we've all got our own ideas on who is good enough and who isn't and what tactics we'd employ. Southgate's got his ideas and is trying things out in order to finalise his squad.

I don't disagree he's tactically inept. I think you'd be an idiot to think otherwise. But I also think it's a job where you're destined to fail anyway. England fans of most sports are the same. It's about playing a certain way - attacking, as much as it is about winning. Unless we lose. If we lose, then we question why the manager wasn't more pragmatic. That's our right! It was the same with the rugby team in the World Cup and it's the same with Bazball.

More relevant for the other thread about this being the one of the most talented England squad's ever - I just simply disagree. I think it's okay but nothing more. We once had a squad with the likes of Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Owen, Rooney. All world class players considered in the top 10 of their positions. It's simply not the case now. And you must agree as you've just slagged off a good few of the options!

 

[TinFoilHat]

To me, Southgate comes across as a bit insincere and dishonest, very much like a politician in that he has all the sound bites, and says what he thinks people want to hear, but it's all a pretence: he has a style of play that he adheres to and nothing will ever change that. He's a product of how the game was played in his heyday of the late 80's/early 90's, and he's now so entrenched in his overly-cautious approach that it's impossible for him to change.
The result is that we have to endure this type of dull and unimaginative dross, which is made all the more difficult to watch because we have someone like Pep in charge. I daresay fans of other clubs who still play the old style game don't notice much difference when it comes to England, but we do - and how.

So he'll do his usual PR exercise for the cameras tomorrow and tow the party line, but we know in advance the football will be dire and many people will switch off rather than sit through 90-odd minutes of tedium, but the FA will not be brave enough to replace him this late in the day, so we'll probably come home early from a tournament again and start from scratch.

The sooner the Prem restarts the better.

And that's why he's the perfect FA yes man.

They run on business targets over sporting achievements. The new shirt has been declared Nike's best seller in years so he's hit his target already and there's no need to let some of the best attackers in Europe of the leash to go balls out to win a tournament.

Leave tournament wins to the women.

 

[TinFoilHat]

To me, Southgate comes across as a bit insincere and dishonest, very much like a politician in that he has all the sound bites, and says what he thinks people want to hear, but it's all a pretence: he has a style of play that he adheres to and nothing will ever change that. He's a product of how the game was played in his heyday of the late 80's/early 90's, and he's now so entrenched in his overly-cautious approach that it's impossible for him to change.
The result is that we have to endure this type of dull and unimaginative dross, which is made all the more difficult to watch because we have someone like Pep in charge. I daresay fans of other clubs who still play the old style game don't notice much difference when it comes to England, but we do - and how.

So he'll do his usual PR exercise for the cameras tomorrow and tow the party line, but we know in advance the football will be dire and many people will switch off rather than sit through 90-odd minutes of tedium, but the FA will not be brave enough to replace him this late in the day, so we'll probably come home early from a tournament again and start from scratch.

The sooner the Prem restarts the better.

And that's why he's the perfect FA yes man.

They run on business targets over sporting achievements. The new shirt has been declared Nike's best seller in years so he's hit his target already and there's no need to let some of the best attackers in Europe off the leash to go balls out to win a tournament.

Leave tournament wins to the women.

 

[super_city_si]

I think he knows better, as he has watched City play a number of times. He is just too cowardly and proud to change. And is under absolutely no pressure to do anything different.

He's come to the conclusion that playing 'not to lose' is fairly successful in tournament football. You always get the chance of penalties.
His MO is score set pieces and keep it tight. Should be enough, if not we have a pretty good chance on penalties (Euro 2020 aside).

Trouble is, playing not to lose IS pretty successful but only against 80% of the teams. Once we get to the semi or final, we play teams who hurt us when we sit deep and just continually turn over the ball. His whole plan comes apart in the latter stages. We will NOT win anything with him. It's soul destroying watching us camp out on our area and Pickford hoof the ball to the other team for 75 mins just waiting for the inevitable.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I'm not sure what the point would be in experimenting if we already know so much! We know Foden is good in the middle, so why try him there? See if he's good on the right!

Ultimately we've all got our own ideas on who is good enough and who isn't and what tactics we'd employ. Southgate's got his ideas and is trying things out in order to finalise his squad.

I don't disagree he's tactically inept. I think you'd be an idiot to think otherwise. But I also think it's a job where you're destined to fail anyway. England fans of most sports are the same. It's about playing a certain way - attacking, as much as it is about winning. Unless we lose. If we lose, then we question why the manager wasn't more pragmatic. That's our right! It was the same with the rugby team in the World Cup and it's the same with Bazball.

More relevant for the other thread about this being the one of the most talented England squad's ever - I just simply disagree. I think it's okay but nothing more. We once had a squad with the likes of Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Owen, Rooney. All world class players considered in the top 10 of their positions. It's simply not the case now. And you must agree as you've just slagged off a good few of the options!

I have never said this is the most talent squad England has ever had. I do think it is talented enough to do far better than Southgate will allow, though.

And I think, based on your responses and mine, we are probably at an impasse and should just agree to disagree on various points.

We both want what is best for England (and especially English City players), we just disagree on how that can be achieved, it seems.

 

[SebastianBlue]

He's come to the conclusion that playing 'not to lose' is fairly successful in tournament football. You always get the chance of penalties.
His MO is score set pieces and keep it tight. Should be enough, if not we have a pretty good chance on penalties (Euro 2020 aside).

Trouble is, playing not to lose IS pretty successful but only against 80% of the teams. Once we get to the semi or final, we play teams who hurt us when we sit deep and just continually turn over the ball. His whole plan comes apart in the latter stages. We will NOT win anything with him. It's soul destroying watching us camp out on our area and Pickford hoof the ball to the other team for 75 mins just waiting for the inevitable.

I think “fairly successful in tournament football” is a problematic stance for the reasons you have given (and others). ;-)

But I agree with your other points.

I just realised Super City is engaging me from all sides today!

Just need @superciteh to jump in and we’ll have the trifecta.

 

[Gazza]

I think “fairly successful in tournament football” is a problematic stance for the reasons you have given (and others). ;-)

But I agree with your other points.

I just realised Super City is engaging me from all sides today!

Just need @superciteh to jump in and we’ll have the trifecta.

When you come up against a team in the latter stages of a competition, you're basically playing the best of the best and this is where the manager makes a difference, unfortunately................

Knowing the FA they'd probably replace Southgate with that other fraud Roberto Martinez.

 

[SebastianBlue]

When you come up against a team in the latter stages of a competition, you're basically playing the best of the best and this is where the manager makes a difference, unfortunately................

Knowing the FA they'd probably replace Southgate with that other fraud Roberto Martinez.

I agree, hence why Southgate’s approach isn’t actually fairly successful in tournament competition. At least not in the modern iteration.

Look at the last four winners of the Euros and World Cup. Only one could be accused of playing a true “don’t lose” system (and I even think there is an argument that is not accurate) and that was the one that came up against a less competent manager playing not to lose.

And I genuinely wonder if Martinez would actually be worse than Southgate.

That’s coming from someone that detests Martinez’s utterly shambolic management of Belgium’s golden generation.

 

[supercity88]

I have never said this is the most talent squad England has ever had. I do think it is talented enough to do far better than Southgate will allow, though.

And I think, based on your responses and mine, we are probably at an impasse and should just agree to disagree on various points.

We both want what is best for England (and especially English City players), we just disagree on how that can be achieved, it seems.

I want England to win something and I don't believe Southgate will deliver that. But as an England fan I also appreciate he has come closest in my lifetime and delivered some great moments. I don't believe this is the best squad ever therefore assumptions someone else comes in and wins things with this team are far fetched in my opinion - which is my wider point and not aimed at what you have said.

I would love to see us play a dominant attacking style of football but I don't think we are good enough to do it.

Southgate also gets little mitigation for his teams/tactics. These games were aimed at testing England against two very good sides. They will have been picked on the basis of playing a team likely to start the Euros. Instead he has faced a number of players withdrawing through "injury" because of their timing. Palmer, Saka, Kane on Saturday now Walker and Maguire.

So he picks a side that is based on the foundations of his best team with a few new players thrown in. That's logical. I don't see why you would throw an experimental team together when you know 8 or 9 of your first 11 and how you want to play. That's essentially all we disagree on!

 

[supercity88]

When you come up against a team in the latter stages of a competition, you're basically playing the best of the best and this is where the manager makes a difference, unfortunately................

Knowing the FA they'd probably replace Southgate with that other fraud Roberto Martinez.

That's something I completely agree with. And it's also the time when the best players step up and deliver those moments of quality. But they only do so in a system that gives them the freedom to do so and also takes the odd risk. Mbappe doesn't defend at all for France, but they cover him so he can do his damage where it matters. Southgate has to try and give key players more freedom, and for me he achieves it by using Stones just as Pep does.

 

[mattcity5]

Things have moved on a few years now, but while Pep was in Spain and in Germany they were the best countries out there.

They based their national team around the majority of their best club team and played similar football. It removed the confusion and time getting players to gel.

Southgate hasn't even attempted anything along these lines. That's where the waste of top players comes in.

Start 4 City players, throw in a couple of Arsenal players who work under Arteta, plus a few Chelsea (ie. Sterling and Palmer). Stick Kane up top just so there's a valid excuse if we don't win anything.

That's a sound basis for a team that can play together without too many conflicting styles.

 

[blue by birth]

absolutely everyone has a different idea on who to start.
I would have tried Bowen over Gordon or Rashford and maybe tried out Palmer in the middle.

so how can Southgate please everyone?

He can fucking go and manage the rags
That would be exceptionally pleasing

 

[Gone for a Burton]

Things have moved on a few years now, but while Pep was in Spain and in Germany they were the best countries out there.

They based their national team around the majority of their best club team and played similar football. It removed the confusion and time getting players to gel.

Southgate hasn't even attempted anything along these lines. That's where the waste of top players comes in.

Start 4 City players, throw in a couple of Arsenal players who work under Arteta, plus a few Chelsea (ie. Sterling and Palmer). Stick Kane up top just so there's a valid excuse if we don't win anything.

That's a sound basis for a team that can play together without too many conflicting styles.

Sterling.....

Are you ill ??

 

[SebastianBlue]

Sterling.....

Are you ill ??

Just for pace! ;-)