Epstein / Prince Andrew / Maxwell

What’s the point in having servants if you can’t get them to squeeze your toothpaste for you?

It wasn't intended to be a euphemism. Doesn't it reveal something about us as a country and our constitution when we are reliant on the (even if only ceremonial) judgement of able bodied people who can't get dressed or attend to their own personal hygiene without the most intense level of assistance?
 
It wasn't intended to be a euphemism. Doesn't it reveal something about us as a country and our constitution when we are reliant on the (even if only ceremonial) judgement of able bodied people who can't get dressed or attend to their own personal hygiene without the most intense level of assistance?
You’ve answered my question with a question. It’s like being at work ffs!
 
If anyone was going to have a sudden clutcher, it was Robert Maxwell. My dad was a printer and he too had his pension robbed by that ****. To want a conspiracy theory to justify it, or square it off, or give it a bigger reason, is silly. he was just a fat thief who croaked it. If he wasnt on a boat he would have gone face first into his patio. The Mossad stuff is unnecessary too. Shades of A-S. He just died, and good riddance. I have lived with the fall out. My old man printed all his papers and still isnt over it to this day and neither would I be.
Really sorry to hear this pal. I’ve previously posted what Maxwell did with the pensions was as evil and reprehensible as what his daughter did with those poor girls.

Both represent such an awful breach of trust, and in Maxwell’s case towards people who had served him loyally for years. The sense of betrayal must be palpable.

Pair of absolute fucking cunts.
 
Not sure it does scupper his claims. That highlighted part doesn’t make sense in terms of a civil claim for damages based on my reading of the material clause (or what I’ve seen of it) unless it’s referring to criminal proceedings which would make more sense as you cannot contract out of liability under criminal law, or fraud more generally (criminal or civil).

Not sure it’s a technicality he’s running if she’s willingly entered into a contract and received the consideration due under that agreement. In fact her trying to argue it’s only applicable in Florida is as much deploying a ‘technicality’ as Andrew. Contract law is founded upon technicalities. Although not sure how enforceable that contract is by a third party, given the other party to it is dead.

It’s a personal view, but if she’s freely entered into that agreement with Epstein (based as I’ve said, on what I’ve read) then she shouldn’t be entitkted to damages, otherwise the whole system breaks down. That doesn’t make Andrew any less guilty, but Guiffre shouldn’t be entitled to damages if she’s had half a million dollars to agree not to bring any claims In the future.

Agree his reputation is utterly broken ad infinitum though - and fully deserved imo.

The system deserves to break down if you can pressure people to settle claims against other people who you have no responsibility for then it shouldn't stand up in court.

What consideration has he given to the contract?

Imagine if a class action law suit was settled with a conglomerate for e.g. knowingly selling dangerously carcinogenic products and the agreement forbade the claimants from bringing similar claims against any other company that was a possible target of takeover by the conglomerate or an actual acquisition.

The claimant lawyers in that circumstance would be wrong to agree to such a clause and should have advised their clients against agreeing to it but such a clause would be perverse.

The Epstein-Giuffre agreement is a perverse document that did precisely what it claims not to do, it concealed and shielded criminality by paying off one of the victims and witnesses. VG had some part to play in that too, by accepting such a paltry sum for her silence when the right thing to do was not to go away quietly.
 
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The system deserves to break down if you can pressure people to settle claims against other people who you have no responsibility for then it shouldn't stand up in court.

What consideration has he given to the contract?

Imagine if a class action law suit was settled with a conglomerate for e.g. knowingly selling dangerously carcinogenic products and the agreement forbade the claimants from bringing similar claims against any other company that was a possible target of takeover by the conglomerate or an actual acquisition.

The lawyers in that circumstance would be wrong to agree to such a clause but such a clause would be perverse.

The Epstein-Giuffre agreement is a perverse document that did precisely what it claims not to do, it concealed and shielded criminality by paying off one of the victims and witnesses. VG had some part to play in that too, by accepting such a paltry sum for her silence when the right thing to do was not to go away quietly.
I don’t think she’s pleading (or there is anything to suggest) that she was subject to duress or undue influence around the formation of the contract and would have been legally represented and advised at that time (and previously).

The consideration came from Epstein, which subject to enforceability of the contract more widely by a third party, will be adequate both in law and sum for the agreement to be valid.

In the tobacco scenario you paint, the claimant should be precluded from bringing any other claims against third parties imo. That is the risk they take when they freely enter into the agreement. (That clause could be there for perfectly legitimate commercial reasons btw, maybe a pan-tobacco industry code).

Parties enter into such agreements to remove doubt to and on both sides. To give certainty in order that the parties can move forward from the litigation, as long as the terms are adhered to. It’s the same principle thst underpins limitation periods: certainty.

(btw, based on the double-counting damages principle not sure they’d be able to bring any further claims against any other corporations in any event.)

If Guiffre had wanted that clause removing or amending as part of the discussions around the contract, then she was at liberty to raise that - it then would have been a matter for Epstein to consider how important it was to him in that form. Presumably those discussions never took place, or they did and Guiffre, being legally represented and advised, decided to sign anyway and accept the $500,000.

If the lawyers, as you suggest, were ‘wrong’ to agree to that clause, and they were professionally negligent,then Guiffre may very well have a claim for damages again them, but not Andrew imo.

Your last sentence supports pretty much all of the above.
 
I don’t think she’s pleading (or there is anything to suggest) that she was subject to duress or undue influence around the formation of the contract and would have been legally represented and advised at that time (and previously).

The consideration came from Epstein, which subject to enforceability of the contract more widely by a third party, will be adequate both in law and sum for the agreement to be valid.

In the tobacco scenario you paint, the claimant should be precluded from bringing any other claims against third parties imo. That is the risk they take when they freely enter into the agreement. (That clause could be there for perfectly legitimate commercial reasons btw, maybe a pan-tobacco industry code).

Parties enter into such agreements to remove doubt to and on both sides. To give certainty in order that the parties can move forward from the litigation, as long as the terms are adhered to. It’s the same principle thst underpins limitation periods: certainty.

(btw, based on the double-counting damages principle not sure they’d be able to bring any further claims against any other corporations in any event.)

If Guiffre had wanted that clause removing or amending as part of the discussions around the contract, then she was at liberty to raise that - it then would have been a matter for Epstein to consider how important it was to him in that form. Presumably those discussions never took place, or they did and Guiffre, being legally represented and advised, decided to sign anyway and accept the $500,000.

If the lawyers, as you suggest, were ‘wrong’ to agree to that clause, and they were professionally negligent,then Guiffre may very well have a claim for damages again them, but not Andrew imo.

Your last sentence supports pretty much all of the above.

It wasn't specifically tobacco that I had in mind, I was thinking of food or toiletry products.

Substitute it with opiates products where patients may have been treated and become addicted to more than one product. Settling one claim shouldn't preclude a claim against one corporation. Not when the damages awarded are only for part of the damage caused.

This agreement was only made because of the unequal power between the parties. If she had greater means she could have afforded lawyers who would have ripped Epstein to shreds and maybe come away with millions. But as I alluded to earlier that still would have been the wrong thing to do.

I'm naturally sceptical of laws that unfairly protect the powerful, (see also libel laws that Jimmy Savile used to protect himself from public scrutiny) so if NDAs and out of court settlements for sexual crimes become uncertain and unenforceable then I wouldn't be too fussed.

Powerful people commiting such heinous crimes deserve to go before a court and if that isn't possible, bankruptcy, public shaming and suicide are better remedies than paltry out of court settlements.
 
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