EU referendum deal (title edited)

[urmston]

The figures emerged in a publication from the Office for National Statistics, which showed that since 2008 the UK’s payments have quadrupled, to £11.3bn.

We pay the EU five times as much as we did a few years ago.

For what?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/britain-eu-contribution-rise-quadruple-cameron

 

[CatMan]

Hello Mr Farage
*Waves*

Not quite Mat, I'm more Lenin.

 

[roaminblue]

You would need to add that infrastructure if the current infrastructure is at breaking point though. We're a country with full schools and increasing class size. It's incredibly difficult to get a convenient doctors appointment and nigh on impossible to find an NHS dentist. Trains on the major routes are full and there's a housing crisis that's caused huge private rent costs and incredible house prices. You can't say adding a few people here and there won't hurt because it's hurting at the moment and adding more people will exacerbate the issue.

I'd like to see evidence for it. I'd imagine that many plan to return home when they come over but several will meet someone or have kids or lose family and those initial plans will change.

This discussion is basically now subjectivity, I can't find the research as am on my phone.

Have a Google though, mate. I'm fairly sure, typically, immigrant are younger and get paid more than the average brit.

This indicates less use of public services such as health care, probably no use of education, and a proportionately higher tax contribution.

Now, if you still have a problem re infrastructure after reading the above in more depth (I.e. the proportionate increase in tax out weighs the proportionate increase in burden), then your reall issue is not with immigration, it is with the allocation of resources. Which I would whole heartedly agree.

 

[mat]

Not quite Mat, I'm more Lenin.

My apologies for comparing your original post with that thundercunt. I agree with your point about long term planning after a no vote but we know the Tories would see it as an excuse to turn british workers into mini China working conditions whilst profiting of f the labour. Ironically it could get Corbyn in with policies as radical as the ones created after WW2.

 

[Chancy Termites]

I think the tax dodging billionaire media tycoons who have shaped UK discourse for 3 decades to line their own personal pockets have a huge amount to answer for. Too many people only now know what's good for Murdoch or the Daily Mails owner and pipe out lies and myths that they have been told since they were born. It is a strong point but everything that made Britain Great, innovation, openness was, progressiveness, courage etc is undermined by the insult self interested hate spouted by so much of the media. Churchill, Gladstone, Disraeli, Lloyd George , wilberforce, Pitt etc would be horrified by today's discourse

I wonder if perhaps you're not aware that both the BBC and Channel Four are subsidised by the EU?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Europe is fucked because of the millenia old realities of demographics and resources, the EU is just a model on top which will be replaced by another model on top which will make no difference to the real issues. Those can only be tackled by either accepting a. Far higher savings rate and reduction in standard of living or allowing for increases net immigration to keep the working population growing

It's incredibly how many people who are inimical to immigration seem to miss this undeniable truth at the heart of the argument. There is no alternative.

 

[purplenose]

The EU is going to go up in flames, and unless we get out we will go up with it. It was a good thing to be part off but I am afraid the do gooders and the greedy fat cats at its head have sealed its place in history as an empire that collapsed amid chaos and carnage....sorry to say that whilst immigration is a positive thing if handled with a degree of common sense and realistic understanding of the consequences, What the EU have been responsible for has to turn it into a giant and wholly imbalanced and unequal union that at worst will see numerous repetitions of the kind of disasters that happened in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union.

Sadly I am afraid as proved beyond doubt in the last general election the British electorate has little grasp of reality nor the intelligence to take with a pinch of salt what the politicians say, certainly take no notice of what some clown on facebook or mums.net have to say and do some hard research on the history of Europe, how it now works and so on....hence I suspect we will vote to stay in. In which case I genuinely fear for the future of our children and those that follow.

 

[DiscoSteve]

I actually feel reasonably confident that the great unwashed will vote to Leave... those daily paragons of truth and virtue such as The Sun will help guide them along the way

 

[EalingBlue2]

It's incredibly how many people who are inimical to immigration seem to miss this undeniable truth at the heart of the argument. There is no alternative.

I increasingly despair about the media and politicians of both right and sadly increasingly about the left they seem to have a few objectives all of them bad.


1) to keep the Ponzi scheme of demographics going and put off all solutions till the future (when it could be too late)
2) to ignore the real issues and instead focus on peripheral ones and use all intellect and emotion on irellevances
3) to make every situation black and white and dreadfully simple and pretend the world and every situation isn't dreadfully complex.
4) to pretend that every bit of blame can be put on to another group of people and by tackling them the problems go away
5) both the RWNJ and indeed Corbyn seem to hold a view that if you put your head in the sand and try to distance yourself from a problem it will go away. As if multi cultural ims, globalisation, interdependence and international obligations don't exist.

If people cannot garner the intelligence to see the real issues then we are screwed.

The sad reality is immigration is what keeps the Ponzi scheme going and if we are to stop it we will need to make huge sacrifices none of which we are willing to make and none of which people pushing back on immigration even acknowledge.

At some point really hard choices on standard of living, on expectation of what a nation can provide and on taxation and only then will we really tackle the issues.

When I think long term I reckon one of two modes will win out either we will move to a model which goes back almost to post war of much higher taxes, much lower expectations of lifestyle and much more of equality or we will move to a Ron Paul libertarian mode where each looks after their own. The demographic time bomb makes most of the middle ground and most of the way we live today impossible long term as even if we can sustain today's model there will be a point at 80m or 90m or 150m where the resources cannot match the population.

Where I see hope is advances in technology and innovation as different ways of producing energy, resources, water, food could I guess change this. As being old would not be a burden of food production, housing, health care m, energy became almost free

 

[EalingBlue2]

I actually feel reasonably confident that the great unwashed will vote to Leave... those daily paragons of truth and virtue such as The Sun will help guide them along the way

How will they react when exiting creates new problems and solves none of the problems that were promised. How will they react when all the same issues still exist outside? That is the real problem and I can see huge backlashes when everyone wakes up and nothing is better.

 

[purplenose]

I actually feel reasonably confident that the great unwashed will vote to Leave... those daily paragons of truth and virtue such as The Sun will help guide them along the way

I would love you to be right but when it comes to it the great British public I suspect will either be once again taken in by the Blairesque lies of our piggy porking prime minster or the king of cretiny Corbyn, both of whom will be desperate to stay in and will sink to great depths of fibbery in order that we remain in.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I wonder if perhaps you're not aware that both the BBC and Channel Four are subsidised by the EU?

The BBC for me is bland in political terms, no real agenda and no longer with the quality it used to have. frankly whoever finds it be it Thatcher or Blair or Cameron or Corbyn or EU it is ultimately funded by the tax payer and doesn't seem to change much whoever is funding it politically.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I would love you to be right but when it comes to it the great British public I suspect will either be once again taken in by the Blairesque lies of our piggy porking prime minster or the king of cretiny Corbyn, both of whom will be desperate to stay in and will sink to great depths of fibbery in order that we remain in.

I am sure that both sides will talk hysterical rot and convince you all about how you will get more healthy by smoking one brand of cigarettes over another . It will be the biggest exercise in arguing about where you put the deckchairs on the titanic in political history.

It will be sad to watch the realisation when one day the EU is exited that it solved precisely nothing , as one thing is clear however many yes votes there are the out voters will keep going as will the SNP on independence until they get their way. When the land of milk and honey doesn't materialise the psychological damage to the country will be immense.

If there was any serious plan on either side to actually talk about real issues I might hold out hope but so far the suggestion is of truly dreadful campaigning by both sides.

 

[purplenose]

I am sure that both sides will talk hysterical rot and convince you all about how you will get more healthy by smoking one brand of cigarettes over another . It will be the biggest exercise in arguing about where you put the deckchairs on the titanic in political history.

It will be sad to watch the realisation when one day the EU is exited that it solved precisely nothing , as one thing is clear however many yes votes there are the out voters will keep going as will the SNP on independence until they get their way. When the land of milk and honey doesn't materialise the psychological damage to the country will be immense.

If there was any serious plan on either side to actually talk about real issues I might hold out hope but so far the suggestion is of truly dreadful campaigning by both sides.

If Cameron pushes the vote back as far as he can, back end of 2017 I can see him shooting himself in the foot, in that time I can see the refugee issues only getting worse, i can see more terrorist attacks if not here but within the EU which will in turn cause more unrest and disaffection with the open borders policy. At that point if a "we have developed a brain get us out of here" vote looks on the cards watch out for dirty Dave finding a reason to postpone or go back on his promise of a vote. Failing that a second vote much like when the Irish dared vote against the Euro and were effectively told they would keep having votes until they voted yes to the bloody thing.

Either way like you say there will be much kicking off and gnashing of teeth followed by much worse when the whole union collapses as it will probably within 10 years.

 

[EalingBlue2]

If Cameron pushes the vote back as far as he can, back end of 2017 I can see him shooting himself in the foot, in that time I can see the refugee issues only getting worse, i can see more terrorist attacks if not here but within the EU which will in turn cause more unrest and disaffection with the open borders policy. At that point if a "we have developed a brain get us out of here" vote looks on the cards watch out for dirty Dave finding a reason to postpone or go back on his promise of a vote. Failing that a second vote much like when the Irish dared vote against the Euro and were effectively told they would keep having votes until they voted yes to the bloody thing.

Either way like you say there will be much kicking off and gnashing of teeth followed by much worse when the whole union collapses as it will probably within 10 years.

There will be much kicking and gnashing of teeth as whatever the outcome I suspect it isn't going to be great for Britain and huge problems will come with exit that may well dwarf those of being in. The reality as I said before this that the problem is the fact Britain has lung cancer and needs to give up smoking and get treatment not the brand of cigarettes it smokes.

 

[Scottyboi]

There will be much kicking and gnashing of teeth as whatever the outcome I suspect it isn't going to be great for Britain and huge problems will come with exit that may well dwarf those of being in. The reality as I said before this that the problem is the fact Britain has lung cancer and needs to give up smoking and get treatment not the brand of cigarettes it smokes.

You know as much as the next man what the damage could be. All guesswork.

 

[purplenose]

There will be much kicking and gnashing of teeth as whatever the outcome I suspect it isn't going to be great for Britain and huge problems will come with exit that may well dwarf those of being in. The reality as I said before this that the problem is the fact Britain has lung cancer and needs to give up smoking and get treatment not the brand of cigarettes it smokes.

Cant argue with that at all...other than to say WILL rather than may.

 

[purplenose]

You know as much as the next man what the damage could be. All guesswork.

Most things regarding the future are guess work to a degree, even as to whether you or I will wake up tommorrow, hopefully we will and indeed it is likely....its purely guesswork to suggest that it may piss down with rain on those making thier way to the Etihad at somepoint between now and when the Messiah Pep arrives to rid us of dark clouds and ensure that the east half of Manchester is bathed in indefinate celestial sunshine, but piss down it will.

 

[Sigh]

It's incredibly how many people who are inimical to immigration seem to miss this undeniable truth at the heart of the argument. There is no alternative.

Stop killing babies? Have more children? Stop contracepting yourselves into this mess? Stop lying to one another about the cause?

 

[EalingBlue2]

You know as much as the next man what the damage could be. All guesswork.

Strictly speaking that would be true of me jumping off a 100 foot cliff into the sea, personally I wouldn't do it though unless I was very clear about what the outcome would be and that benefits would flow.

I think the out campaign is very effective but is based on fundamental untruths and a misunderstanding or more likely deliberate misrepresentation of what the problems are. The yes campaign is a debacle and As they have no more interest in discussing or understanding the real issues they just hope it will go away and try to be flippant or use fear to win.

Both are very bad for Britain and such a level of discourse will ensure sadly a bad outcome either way. Unless that is call me, calls the EU's bluff and pulls off a significant improvement in the UK agreement with Europe.