I'm too ignorant to vote on this matter currently.
However, you having researched it thoroughly and taken the view that we should Leave means that this tells me I should probably vote for In.
EU referendum
- Thread starter Ric
- Start date
- Status
I'm too ignorant to vote on this matter currently.
However, you having researched it thoroughly and taken the view that we should Leave means that this tells me I should probably vote for In.
grunge
Well-Known Member
Blame the Torys for crippling the services, and selling off the council houses, not the people using them.
I think there are differences. An independent Scotland's economy is far easier to make an accurate prediction on than a UK outside the EU. Scotland would be selling and buying the same stuff but they'd get the whole pot rather than a chunk of the UK pot. As it was, they wildly overestimated the price of oil and enough people weren't duped.
The UK's case depends on any trade costs and any new costs that are imposed could cause us to buy/sell elsewhere at a totally different amount. It is more of a gamble in that regard but In can't claim the economy will be in tatters and Out can't claim the UK ill be a field of gold.
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more of the 'emotional blackmail' that accompanied both sides of the argument, such as re-applying for membership of the EU, or that major financial institutions and companies would move south if they voted for independence.
We are getting the same shite on a different platform with this 'debate - the Russians are coming, the terrorists are goin' to get us, we'll become a tiny nation with no influence, we will not need the UK Parliament. All shite!
blueonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 31 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 2,522
The previous 13 years under labor saw 3.5 million immigrants flood the system, and just how many council house sales did labor block exactly ?, not to mention how many new ones they did not build ;0).
Not that its contributing to the point that continuing to having to to allow floods of financial migrants is madness, but blaming the tories all the time does get a little tedious
D
D
Deleted member 3896
Guest
1. If you say so.
2. The Parliament Act barely matters in this argument. I was making the point that people who bang on about the lack of democracy in the EU do chuff all about it at home. Parliament act or no, you have to recognise that a huge component of our lawmaking institutions are unelected. The fact that every now and again the government will use the parliament act to get something through doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that the lords make a lot of law and are not elected.
And you could make that argument that the Lords has done some good despite not being elected about the EU commission.
It's a pretty simple argument that I'm making: if people who decry a democratic deficit in the EU actually cared about that then they would do something about it at home as well rather than obfuscate about it. You yourself have gone from saying that the House of Lords does "fuck all" to saying that it's managed to turn away some awful legislation in your defence of it. Which is it?
Blame the Torys for crippling the services, and selling off the council houses, not the people using them.
This is precisely why I despise the left people who claim to support the working class and yet run them down at every opportunity. Immigration has its greatest effects on the lowest earners, on pay, job opportunities and housing. This graphic supports the wealthy and big business that need low paid workers and landlords who welcome higher rents. You keep slagging off those at the bottom of the income scale and blame them for things they are unable to control. So great is the betrayal of the working class by the left that the current Labour leadership want open borders.
urmston
Well-Known Member
Ah, the famous Damocles logic.
grunge
Well-Known Member
Who else are you going to blame when they are intentionally crippling the systems?, the NHS is struggling, especially in the last few years because the Tory's have halted funding increases so by the magic of inflation have cut the budget of the NHS, but then depending on what you read this is probably just a pre cursor for the TTIP privatization of the NHS. The migrants get jobs, that pay taxes, vat, NI, Council tax etc like everyone else which should be helping to fund the services they use. But that goes against the Tory's Big Society balls.
Labour are not exactly innocent on the Council house front though.
grunge
Well-Known Member
sees comical image, takes the insulted stick and runs with it....
We are still in a deficit so public services are currently more expensive to run than what the government is collecting in tax receipts (and before you claim what you're going to, the Tories have done much more to chase down the tax of some dodging corporations than Labour ever did).
Immigration at levels never seen before has stretched public services to the limits. Immigrants simply don't put enough tax into the system to pay for the housing, schools, hospitals, roads, transport, etc. that is necessary for them. We need to build a Wigan every year if you don't want to stretch existing services further.
The Light Was Yellow Sir
Well-Known Member
So you're suggesting that Gove, Boris, Farage and the rest are proposing breaking over 40 years of political consensus, right across the political spectrum, with absolutely no idea of the consequences, is in some way altruistic and will be for the benefit of us all?
And what makes this an 'argument for simpletons' is that Cameron and Osbourne are therefore supporting the position of the last 11 elected governments and over 500 of currently elected MP's, that we shouldn't leave?
Because you can take the names out of that argument and it still makes sense. Your post basically said these people I don't like support X, so I will support Y; completely ignoring that other people you don't like support Y. It is a self serving argument that people use to give credence to a decision they have already made on different factors. Those different factors are the ones that interest me and at least you've mentioned them in this post.
I don't think they have absolutely no idea of the consequences. It's admittedly hard to predict consequences exactly, but intelligent guesses can be made. For example, why would the EU levy huge trade fees on the UK when the UK imports more than it exports? Why would the EU stop trading with an independent UK (Switzerland trade a higher percentage of their exports to the EU than the UK does currently!)?
Politicians like the EU gravy train. Staying in would keep potentially lucrative EU roles open to them at the end of their UK parliamentary career. Likewise big business leaders and US politicians are telling the people of the UK to vote the way that best suits them - not the UK people.
Actually it is perfect logic.
You say you've researched it an awful lot and I trust that you're not lying about this. You've searched your beliefs and decided on a strong LEAVE vote. As I disagree with you on literally every political, ethical and philosophical position that you have ever expressed then it's perfectly logical to presume that I would do so on issue number 364,856 aswell.
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Not everyone's, just the majority, which your post about foreigners backs up nicely thanks.
's
SWP's back
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2009
- Messages
- 90,606
500 MPs?
Would you trust MPs not to be conflicted given the EU gravy train? They'll have seen Blair manage to become an EU Middle East peace envoy and think that they could cherry pick any position they wanted!
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
To be fair to the majority you get called that by over half of bluemoon members..
Pocketbook voting is always going to be a thorn in the side of the democratic process. In a general election it matters a lot less when people vote for their own self interests. The issues are simpler. This Europe shit seems to be so intertwined at all levels that a self serving vote may well be the exact opposite when more than one factor is considered.
- Status