EU referendum

[TonyM]

Not really its a simple in or out vote.

In means we know what we have and we try to use influence and discussion to shape the EU into an entity which better reflects our needs and aspirations which we can do because we are members.

Out means we have "taken back control" and have no plan on immigration just an aspiration to reduce net migration by curtailing migrants from the EU. It will mean there is a generally accepted hit to the economy - however long however bad BOTH sides agree there will be one so for an unspecified time GDP will be down and as individuals we are likely to be poorer. We will be simultaneously trying to negotiate exit from the EU on the most advantageous terms and negotiate trade deals with the other 167 countries in the world that are not in the EU so won't be covered in our exit deal.

It's a simple vote but for what you want in the future. Take out the immediate tactics and plans as its too short term. Either you want in or out long term. Then the experts can architect the best solution to meet that requirement. The current scaremongering is just trying to win a debate. IMO.

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

Voting out but it's got to the point where I don't give a shit anymore either way. The remainers have convinced me that it will not be a disaster if we stay in but I think we will be better off out. The leave campaign could have won but sadly very few credible people have come forward in support and too many moonbats banging on about immigrants have hijacked the campaign. It could have been so different if Corbyn grew a set of bollocks and fought for what he really believed in.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

The NHS is exempt from TTIP and this has been set out in black and white by the European Commission - as I've posted previously!

The TUC led the campaign against TTIP and their Head was on the Remain platform tonight!

That's not true. There's nothing set in stone yet.

There's been attempts to ensure the NHS would be protected but nothing is guaranteed. And becoming part of TTIP will make it more difficult to reverse the current creeping privatisation in the NHS that has already taken place.

 

[west didsblue]

How do we compete with China on our own? After we wronged China so badly don't expect any good will when they rule the world.

What have we done to China?

 

[Blue Haze]

Remain looks pretty certain at this point. I still find it astonishing that the entire future of your nation will be determined by one murdered MP. Saw a graphic on FB showing how the polls basically flipped practically the day after it happened.

Are people even voting for the right reasons? Seems to me the decision should be about what's best for the country in the future, not letting one murderer determine the future of your nation.

What I really can't understand is why the EU can't be amended to fix the concerns people have. According to the last poll I saw, immigration was viewed overwhemingly negatively by voters, yet they seemed to like most of the other aspects of EU membership. So why not just abandon that one thing and end the issue that has the EU on the brink of its own demise?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The NHS is exempt from TTIP and this has been set out in black and white by the European Commission - as I've posted previously!

And it was bollocks the first time. TTIP (which you originally and wrongly told us was dead so your previous on this isn't really too clever) is still being negotiated. The EU has said it plans to try to include provisions to exempt certain publicly funded bodies from being subject to the full market provisions of TTIP but there's no guarantees that it will achieve that. The Yanks could simply refuse to include it or there could be a theoretical exemption which private companies could drive a coach and horses through.

 

[bluethrunthru]

How do we compete with China on our own? After we wronged China so badly don't expect any good will when they rule the world.

Oh its OK the Leave campaign would have you believe thats no problem.... 5th largest economy in the world...... big enough to stand alone...... we did ok in the 60's before the Common Market.......take back control............ blah blah blah. China needn't worry us. We can sell JCB's and financial services to Kazakhstan or Malta and such like we will be ok we are Great Britain after all - an island alone we did it once faced by Adolf why should we worry now....................

 

[Corky]

What have we done to China?

We forget the Opium Wars at it is more convenient, they do not.

 

[TCIB]

Seen the video, still think we are better out.

What have we done to China?

Wiped it on the curtain on the way out probably.

 

[west didsblue]

We forget the Opium Wars at it is more convenient, they do not.

That was 150 years ago and no longer relevant especially as Hong Kong was returned to China 20 years ago.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It's a simple vote but for what you want in the future. Take out the immediate tactics and plans as its too short term. Either you want in or out long term. Then the experts can architect the best solution to meet that requirement. The current scaremongering is just trying to win a debate. IMO.

But you can't remove the plans from the equation because thats what is needed from the winning side come Friday morning - if the victors haven't a detailed plan then God help us.

As to scaremongering - both In and Out say there will be a negative economic impact if we vote to Leave. How deep and for how long differs depending on the side making the point - truth be told nobody can predict until the outcome of the vote is known and world reacts but I suppose the question I would ask you is for how long are you and yours prepared to be worse off as a result of an Out vote and exactly how far you would be prepared to be worse off - a few quid a week, a few thou a year?

 

[bluethrunthru]

That was 150 years ago and no longer relevant especially as Hong Kong was returned to China 20 years ago.

Now I get it........ long term strategic planning !! The Establishment knew this day would come so mindful of the Chinese economic powerhouse that was coming and aware of how we'd fucked them off in the Opium Wars we kept the Chinese sweet withe the "gift" of the return of Honkers 20 years ago .... nice. Shrewd and fuckin clever I have to say.....

 

[TonyM]

2 years to sort it out right? High level plans I presume would take shape within 6 months....providing the politicians move forward and don't spend the 6 months continuing to bicker.

 

[bluethrunthru]

2 years to sort it out right? High level plans I presume would take shape within 6 months....providing the politicians move forward and don't spend the 6 months continuing to bicker.

I wonder how long people think it will take to negotiate exit from the EU whilst trying to secure Brexit terms - no immigration without the points system and full access to the EU trade zone - and at the same time negotiate trade deals with 150 + other non EU countries that are in the world. And continue to run a country.

For starters we don't have enough civil servants.

 

[TonyM]

But you can't remove the plans from the equation because thats what is needed from the winning side come Friday morning - if the victors haven't a detailed plan then God help us.

As to scaremongering - both In and Out say there will be a negative economic impact if we vote to Leave. How deep and for how long differs depending on the side making the point - truth be told nobody can predict until the outcome of the vote is known and world reacts but I suppose the question I would ask you is for how long are you and yours prepared to be worse off as a result of an Out vote and exactly how far you would be prepared to be worse off - a few quid a week, a few thou a year?

I'm Irish so to be fair I should even be commenting. I just hope that we'll eventually follow suit or that the EU is shocked into changing significantly and begs for a revote on much more concessionary terms. The EU as it stands is highly arrogant and not really trying to show any signs of working with Britain or anyone else. It's their way or the highway and it scares me for my kids.

If it was here, I could afford a year of no work...but it'd hurt big time...but it'd be worth it if it meant a better long term future for my kids. I just feel like the EU will never care about the outskirts of Europe and they'll suck everything inwards.

 

[TonyM]

I wonder how long people think it will take to negotiate exit from the EU whilst trying to secure Brexit terms - no immigration without the points system and full access to the EU trade zone - and at the same time negotiate trade deals with 150 + other non EU countries that are in the world. And continue to run a country.

For starters we don't have enough civil servants.

Job creation there :-)

 

[bluethrunthru]

I'm Irish so to be fair I should even be commenting. I just hope that we'll eventually follow suit or that the EU is shocked into changing significantly and begs for a revote on much more concessionary terms. The EU as it stands is highly arrogant and not really trying to show any signs of working with Britain or anyone else. It's their way or the highway and it scares me for my kids.

If it was here, I could afford a year of no work...but it'd hurt big time...but it'd be worth it if it meant a better long term future for my kids. I just feel like the EU will never care about the outskirts of Europe and they'll suck everything inwards.

Well we are in the EU at the moment and I am more confident for my kids if we remain than if we leave.

Unfortunately you are definitely in a minority - I suspect most people in Britain would be fucked by a 10% drop in income or a 2% increase in borrowing rates that sort of thing so any retraction of economic circumstances is probably unaffordable for most even if they feel it would be a price worth paying.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Job creation there :-)

On the market access thing - there will be a sense of fair play that EU ministers and governments will have to sell back home after negotiations. No way will we have unfettered access to EU markets with none of the "drawbacks " such as withdrawal from free movement or no contributions. It would be like being a member of a tennis club and telling the committee that its shit and you are leaving and no longer paying subs..... but you expect to be able to continue using their courts and the bar. Even if the committee went for it could you imagine what the members would say?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Quite a few of us who voted in 1975 thought we were voting for a Common Market, which seemed an eminently sensible idea. What we got (though we weren't told about it) was the European Union. The signs were there in hindsight but we didn't have the internet in those days so couldn't really know. And those few who warned that it was the first step in the creation of a European super-state were ridiculed. Now we're saying "We didn't vote for that at the time" which is the main reason why us older people are voting to leave. In a nutshell, we were conned. You could even say we were groomed, with all sorts of promises and treats.

The Lisbon and Maastricht treaties were the next steps and there was some disquiet but we didn't have the chance to vote on those. Voting t stay in on Thursday removes one of the last major barriers to the implementation of the Five Presidents' plan for fiscal, monetary and political union. That's in the public domain because of the internet though no one on the Leave campaign has brought it up when they really should have. There is simply no prospect that we will be able to opt out of that, which will involve joining the Euro and surrendering fiscal policy to the EU Finance Ministry. There is currently no guarantee, despite what Cameron will have you believe, that the NHS will be protected under TTIP. Does anyone really believe that Hunt even wants to protect it?

If that's fine with you, then vote Remain by all means. But do it with your eyes wide open and don't come back in 15 years time saying "But I didn't vote for that in 2016".

 

[TonyM]

Well we are in the EU at the moment and I am more confident for my kids if we remain than if we leave.

Unfortunately you are definitely in a minority - I suspect most people in Britain would be fucked by a 10% drop in income or a 2% increase in borrowing rates that sort of thing so any retraction of economic circumstances is probably unaffordable for most even if they feel it would be a price worth paying.

Yes most people couldn't afford much time off work. Most of my family and friends couldn't. So it's no light matter. But I'd hope that there wasn't a huge impact. At least in the short term. People just don't know. And no one can trust the supposed experts as they are almost always either wrong or consumed by self interest. Otherwise we'd have utopia already.

If Britain votes remain then that's cool and to be honest I'd be shocked if they didn't. But I still hold out hope that they'll lead the way. I'm astonished at how high the out numbers are so there must be plenty of ordinary people willing to "take a chance on the long term best interest". Conjures images of spitfires over the channel.... fades out to God save the Queen. (Can't believe I wrote that)