EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

And how would staying in the eu achieve this?

I don't think staying in or going out will achieve this , what I do think is the whole debate the whole vote has been a distraction for years and will continue to be for years to come. My view is the debate has been used by both sides as a distraction, the pretence there is a silver bullet and the time and money that has been wasted on this and will be for years to come is only going to make the real problems worse, because it puts off thinking about them.

My guess is no politician will be brace enough to do anything until it is too late and pensions and the Nhs will be lost to the poor or a technological, biological advance will come that so changes the game that something positive will help solve the issues.

 

[EalingBlue2]

What happens is we have an ever increasing population so wages stay low which is great for the rich, and we need more houses but they ain't getting built so people pay higher rents so they need to work harder, which helps the rich, and the nhs gets stretched so people wait longer so people join bupa which helps the rich, and schools have too many kids so people want their kids to go to a nice school in a nice area which helps the rich. And this ever growing population get stressed,Ill,old and the government pension scheme of 2% is laughable so they have to work longer which helps the rich.

In the meantime this population has kids who want educating, health care, jobs, cars, computers and all of modern life's luxury and we start the merry go round again.

And then one day we look around and if you have exploited the situation life is rosy but the rest is fucked, we have become the USA and if you Are living in Manhattan it's the greatest place in the world, but most live in Baltimore and to be honest you could be in any shithole in the world.

So how do we stop this, easy we need more people which is why the countries with the highest populations have the greatest poverty

Your argument is fairly obvious the countries with the highest population have the greatest poverty that would be true of poverty was evenly split through the whole world I assume what you are trying to say is that the countries with the densest (not an intelligence comment) populations have the greatest poverty which actually isn't true at all if you look at the stats.

So yes I don't think population an grow for ever but globally population is driven by birth rate and morality rate , immigration is just shifting where it sits.

You hit the nail on the head people "want" and they want it now and they want more that they or the country can afford. They put luxuries (and many luxuries are seen as necessities) today ahead of necessities tomorrow. We put off retirement , health and investing in infrastructure, training, education and a strong future off to fuel house prices, faux property wealth and the consumption of more luxurious cars and better electronics. We sold off everything the state had for Betamax video recorders and CD players.

Yes the population can't go up for ever but neither can this society that looks after number 1 , is so driven by immediate sating of desires at the cost of bankrupting the western world and consuming everything the planet has.

 

[SWP's back]

Great intelligent debate and great stalking again SWP - though as an expert on Faux as you are, again I take your point as very well made.

There she is.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

What tosh.
I read this after coming home from the pub last night where i'd had a few pints after work. I was drinking with mates who between them own their own business' in the building game. Groundworker employs 5 lads with one European, Roofer has 3 lads all English, industrial specialist glazer runs about 30 staff with his Romanian colleague and most are British, construction and property firm owner with about 50 workers mostly British.

The bloke I mentioned in my post has been in the building trade all his life, over 40 years now. He has/does work for large companies, and the site
he's now on, with around 150 blokes, around 50% are Eastern European. Small companies like the ones you mentioned with 3 or 4, up to the 50 mentioned
(even these are not all British as you say) may indeed have more Brits, but this trade, together with the service industries are heavily staffed by people
willing to work for lower wages.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The bloke I mentioned in my post has been in the building trade all his life, over 40 years now. He has/does work for large companies, and the site
he's now on, with around 150 blokes, around 50% are Eastern European. Small companies like the ones you mentioned with 3 or 4, up to the 50 mentioned
(even these are not all British as you say) may indeed have more Brits, but this trade, together with the service industries are heavily staffed by people
willing to work for lower wages.

Has anything changed? I remember as a kid builders in Manchester always moaning about how you couldn't make a living because of all of the Irish taking jobs in building. My best mates dad gave it up and he always maintained it was because of tens of thousands of irish builders and labourers coming over in the eighties.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

How ever you are voting make sure you are registered to vote, I have just registered it took 30 seconds and you MUST do this do not assume you are registered I was not .

 

[stonerblue]

The bloke I mentioned in my post has been in the building trade all his life, over 40 years now. He has/does work for large companies, and the site
he's now on, with around 150 blokes, around 50% are Eastern European. Small companies like the ones you mentioned with 3 or 4, up to the 50 mentioned
(even these are not all British as you say) may indeed have more Brits, but this trade, together with the service industries are heavily staffed by people
willing to work for lower wages.

So this begs the questions, how much do the Europeans get paid and how much do the Brits get on your friends site?

 

[BigJoe#1]

I'm just glad the migrants have stopped coming across the European border. Thankfully they are no longer risking their lives and dying in pursuit of the false hope.

Just think about that for a moment!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There is in exactly the same way as if a judge, or a white hall mandarin or whatever does things in this country, sometimes it could be quicker than waiting for an election , sometimes slower. However in the UK you need to get the majority of the people on the majority of constituencies, in Euorpe it is not so clean but you may not need the majority in all countries to make change meaning it is not as clean. Ultimately the populations of Europe still elect their governments that make up the key councils and make the key decisions .

Judges rule on law and occasionally form precedents which bind courts. Making new laws is what I am talking about by the government which is elected here and not in Europe.

It's that simple. If you want to argue about stuff like economic instability as a result of exit or just the concept of being in it means working together fine , but when you stray into democracy and sovereignty you talk nonsense.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

So this begs the questions, how much do the Europeans get paid and how much do the Brits get on your friends site?

Virtually everyone working in the trade is now recruited via agencies, from what he tells me, and dependant on skills the rates vary. He has
questioned dozens of Poles who are very cagey in discussing their wages, but he knows for a fact that many of the lower skilled workers are getting less than
the minimum wage. Due to the transient nature of the business these people are gone and onto another site by the time anybody's bothered to kick up a fuss about
it, they keep their mouths shut for fear of losing the job. As for his job, he's a slinger/banksman in the main, but can drive and operate cherry pickers and other
equipment, his wages are now less than they were 10 years ago. The biggest problem is apprenticeships, which were common but now apparently are virtually
non existent, why bother to train anyone when their job can be imported? If I owned a company, I wouldn't bother either, I don't blame the immigrants, neither does he,
but when companies are offered workers in vast numbers it's obvious wages will be depressed.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Virtually everyone working in the trade is now recruited via agencies, from what he tells me, and dependant on skills the rates vary. He has
questioned dozens of Poles who are very cagey in discussing their wages, but he knows for a fact that many of the lower skilled workers are getting less than
the minimum wage. Due to the transient nature of the business these people are gone and onto another site by the time anybody's bothered to kick up a fuss about
it, they keep their mouths shut for fear of losing the job. As for his job, he's a slinger/banksman in the main, but can drive and operate cherry pickers and other
equipment, his wages are now less than they were 10 years ago. The biggest problem is apprenticeships, which were common but now apparently are virtually
non existent, why bother to train anyone when their job can be imported? If I owned a company, I wouldn't bother either, I don't blame the immigrants, neither does he,
but when companies are offered workers in vast numbers it's obvious wages will be depressed.

Sadly this is not unique to the Building trade, virtually every other industry is going the same way. Another massive legacy from Thatcher that will prove to be devastating int future when the pension pot runs drier than it already is.

 

[stonerblue]

Virtually everyone working in the trade is now recruited via agencies, from what he tells me, and dependant on skills the rates vary. He has
questioned dozens of Poles who are very cagey in discussing their wages, but he knows for a fact that many of the lower skilled workers are getting less than
the minimum wage. Due to the transient nature of the business these people are gone and onto another site by the time anybody's bothered to kick up a fuss about
it, they keep their mouths shut for fear of losing the job. As for his job, he's a slinger/banksman in the main, but can drive and operate cherry pickers and other
equipment, his wages are now less than they were 10 years ago. The biggest problem is apprenticeships, which were common but now apparently are virtually
non existent, why bother to train anyone when their job can be imported? If I owned a company, I wouldn't bother either, I don't blame the immigrants, neither does he,
but when companies are offered workers in vast numbers it's obvious wages will be depressed.

Surely then the blame for this problem lies squarely on the shoulders of the companies operating illegal working practices and breaking the law. If not them then the agency that provides the staff illegally.
Casual labourers i know can't get through the gates of a site without some shitty 'induction' training and/or cards.
It's the companies that are exploiting the workers, not the immigrants.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Surely then the blame for this problem lies squarely on the shoulders of the companies operating illegal working practices and breaking the law. If not them then the agency that provides the staff illegally.
Casual labourers i know can't get through the gates of a site without some shitty 'induction' training and/or cards.
It's the companies that are exploiting the workers, not the immigrants.

Yes, this is true, but what you and I want just doesn't happen. However, if we accept that we could somehow improve enforcement, it does not alter
the fact that this industry, together with hotels, bars, cleaning, and most service industries using unskilled workers,now have an abundance of people
more than willing to work for the minimum wage, so the rates will forever be depressed and our millions of native unskilled are paying the price. Big companies,
obviously do not want to change this, and although I'm no Labour voter, the 'Labour Leave' campaign are saying the same thing, finally realising that it's the
working classes who are affected the most.

 

[TonyM]

I work in a huge global technology company and manufacturing is now staffed via agencies/subcontractors that pay and treat people like shit. Before this middleman if you joined our company at the very lowest rank you could hope to rise to the top. You were trained and developed with that in mind. Personalities were as important as skills. It truly was a genuine and respectful community. It's all changed and meanwhile HR boast about us being one of the best employers in the world. Great if you're not one of the poor souls subcontracted. People say this is to compete with China but I think we could still be cost effective if we did it the old way with some tweaks. Although the contract firms wouldn't be skimming off the top then. This happened on the EUs watch. They don't give a shit about entry level workers in the western countries imo. They believe in 2 classes imo. Glad I'm safe but I know lots of people struggling in that bottom class.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I work in a huge global technology company and manufacturing is now staffed via agencies/subcontractors that pay and treat people like shit. Before this middleman if you joined our company at the very lowest rank you could hope to rise to the top. You were trained and developed with that in mind. Personalities were as important as skills. It truly was a genuine and respectful community. It's all changed and meanwhile HR boast about us being one of the best employers in the world. Great if you're not one of the poor souls subcontracted. People say this is to compete with China but I think we could still be cost effective if we did it the old way with some tweaks. Although the contract firms wouldn't be skimming off the top then. This happened on the EUs watch. They don't give a shit about entry level workers in the western countries imo. They believe in 2 classes imo. Glad I'm safe but I know lots of people struggling in that bottom class.

That's what global economy has become - agents who sit in the middle skimming off the top. London and investment banks and clever investors they are all mainly skimming off the top of our pensions schemes from here and round the world.

Agents and consultants that's what business and the western world economy is built on. Nobody makes stuff anymore....

 

[kippax4ever]

Surely then the blame for this problem lies squarely on the shoulders of the companies operating illegal working practices and breaking the law. If not them then the agency that provides the staff illegally.
Casual labourers i know can't get through the gates of a site without some shitty 'induction' training and/or cards.
It's the companies that are exploiting the workers, not the immigrants.

As i mentioned previously,there was one massive job in manchester(besides others lesser ones) were illegals were employed,
Your right about inductions/cards,but also you have to show appropriate id/ passport(which in this case the agencies obviously didn't check) & was never fined or the main contractor..
It wasn't raided once it was done on numerous occasions,& the majority off that workforce were eastern european(not illegals)no locals hardly on the job..
I was on one job in central mcr,& there was a site next door,every single person on that job was eastern european(except management)living & sleeping on the job,& every night a van would turn up & 6/10 guys would get out with there bags to start,got talking to one he said he wasn't happy on there asked me any chance getting on the site i was on.
Depends how much your rate is,he told me £3.50ph(which we seen every friday being paid cash in hand)
So anyone who suggest the that wages aren't being slashed through cheap foreign labour is living with the fairies.. And thats just one typical example ive seen out off many...

 

[Pino]

Bit quiet on the forthcoming EU Bank Bail in agenda, n'est-ce pas ?
Noos reaches me that all's not well in the Italian Banking System.
As was the case in Greece, it's the Germans and the French that have most exposure.
We all know what that means, don't we ?

Officially, the Italian government’s debt-to-GDP ratio stands at 130%, and since the public sector is 50% of GDP, government debt is 260% of the Italian tax base. It is also the nature of these things that these official numbers probably understate the true position.
If the Eurozone is the greatest risk to global financial and systemic stability, Italy looks like being the trigger at its core. The virtuous circle of Italian banks, pension funds and insurance companies, funding ever-increasing quantities of debt for the government, is failing.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Judges rule on law and occasionally form precedents which bind courts. Making new laws is what I am talking about by the government which is elected here and not in Europe.

It's that simple. If you want to argue about stuff like economic instability as a result of exit or just the concept of being in it means working together fine , but when you stray into democracy and sovereignty you talk nonsense.

We elect MPs we don't actually elect PMs or cabinets or any of the actual roles. They are chosen by the elected MPs which is not so different to Europe where the non elected officials or the commissioners are chosen by elected governments. Most is driven by the councils or minister (all elected) MEPs are also elected. So there is a lot of exaggeration . In reality the commission don't actually approve legislation they just put it together and are the source of proposing legislation (often on request from EP or EC) it has to have approval from the council and sometimes parliament which are elected. This is not so different to domestically when it is usually civil servants not parliamentarians who draft legislation .
Democracy is no doubt the best system available but it has become short term and is becoming increasingly damaging and dysfunctional in most of the west. That said I would rather live in a country with a horizon of 2 weeks than the alternatives but I don't subscribe to the hypothesis that you make that the EU is in democratic in my view it is as democratic as the member nations no more no less

 

[stonerblue]

Urmston must be busy this morning or he'd no doubt be on telling us how the Tories are a racist party after the latest bollox spouted by the tory brexiters leader..

 

[EalingBlue2]

Urmston must be busy this morning or he'd no doubt be on telling us how the Tories are a racist party after the latest bollox spouted by the tory brexiters leader..

He is busy on another thread praising the Austrians for the fact they are about to vote in a neo facist