EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

That may be the figure that never goes to the EU because we make the deduction here (it's not really a rebate). Even the strongest Brexiters say our net contribution is £10billion after EU spend here. This also includes some areas that we have spent more on (whether you agree with it or not) if the EU didn't exist!

The vast majority of the £10 billion would go if we entered a trade agreement at the same cost per person at Norway. Then if we could get a deal that didn't invlude free movement then here would be costs from implementing the mooted points and visa system (that might be worthwhile). The notion of savings is misleading!

Tim, on your first para I think we do send approximately £350m a week. The inward investment us just that, it's the EU giving money to British projects. As I understand it, the rebate is retrospective, Ie you get a refund based on the previous years contributions. Whether that rebate is in the form of cash based on the previous years payment, or whether is discounted against the current years payment I really don't know, either way it does affect the overall amount we pay in and get back.

Realistically we should be talking about £10.5bn nett contribution plus £4.5bn or £5.5bn whichever is the inward investment amount, or just talking about the £10.5bn with a pledge that the inward investment (to farmers in the form of CAP payments etc) would continue. The problem with the last point is that Breaxit is not a political party so it cannot commit yo what the Conervatives, Labour or any other party will do. All it can do I'd highlight her potential opportunity presented by our leaving!

 

[Blue Til Death]

The remain campaign trio were utterly woeful in the debate last night, their default position to virtually every question was that nasty Boris was going to take away all our rights and send us up shit creek without a paddle. The worst was Sturgeon, the hypocrisy of that woman is breathtaking....! The remain campaign were controlled and measured in their responses, not screaming like juiced up students, trying to disrupt the answers of the Brexit lot..! The euro Zone is dead in the water and has been for a number of years, anyone who cannot see that is uninformed or just blinkered to the facts.
We will vote to leave for sure and when we do the Eurozone will collapse in on itself, the Germans will bail within a few years and that will be that...!

 

[steviemc]

Yes I mentioned that earlier. If the EU collapses, we can't stand laughing, it will be disaster for us too. We need our counterparts to be prosperous (as they need us to be). If EU based businesses have problems, people lose their jobs in the UK too.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

Bang On

 

[Monkfish]

Tim, on your first para I think we do send approximately £350m a week.

Now you are really confusing me, you are passionate about this referendum but you appear to know nothing about it. Surely you have read enough to know the 350 figure is nonsense? Surely you know we do not 'pay in' and 'get back' by now? Surely you know the money never leaves the exchequer? Surely?

You just teasing me again Beej?

 

[AlgarveBlu]

What surprised me recently was hearing that a leading Brexit campaigner was considering mounting a legal challenge to the government extending the date for registering to vote.

Very odd.

I'm sure the vast majority of people irrespective of their view in the debate thought that DC was at it again with a 1 hour glitch leading to a two day extension to register, especially when he seemed to have access to the demographics on who was registering at the time. Leave campaign could say jack shit for obvious reasons and so DC plays a blinder. I am fairly certain that if he was on the leave side he would Not of allowed an extension on registrations other than for the lost hour.

He has in my opinion had a disastrous referendum which aptly started with the Panama papers, remain leaflets paid by tax payers, months of embarrassing fear tactics and his fingerprints all over the 2 day extension. If he carries on at this rate he'll be drinking in the same pub as Blair

 

[mancity dan]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

Great post

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The remain campaign trio were utterly woeful in the debate last night, their default position to virtually every question was that nasty Boris was going to take away all our rights and send us up shit creek without a paddle. The worst was Sturgeon, the hypocrisy of that woman is breathtaking....! The remain campaign were controlled and measured in their responses, not screaming like juiced up students, trying to disrupt the answers of the Brexit lot..! The euro Zone is dead in the water and has been for a number of years, anyone who cannot see that is uninformed or just blinkered to the facts.
We will vote to leave for sure and when we do the Eurozone will collapse in on itself, the Germans will bail within a few years and that will be that...!

I hope we do vote leave but.


I absolutely do not want a eu crash, that would be awful for them and us on so many levels.

I want us to reach a sensible accord and agreement with our eu friends and partners that's works for all and others

That we return to the table which allows us to have and build an economic cooperation area (not political or legal) . Where power is decentralised and passed back to us and others. Meps and the parliaments and institutions are scrapped in Brussels.

We help sensibly to manage migration from outside into Europe and manage and control movement out of countries within Europe.

The amount we contribute and others for this new economic cooerperation level is in the millions per year not billions.

 

[Monkfish]

I'm sure the vast majority of people irrespective of their view in the debate thought that DC was at it again with a 1 hour glitch leading to a two day extension to register, especially when he seemed to have access to the demographics on who was registering at the time. Leave campaign could say jack shit for obvious reasons and so DC plays a blinder. I am fairly certain that if he was on the leave side he would Not of allowed an extension on registrations other than for the lost hour.

Yep, if Leave do actually attempt to challenge this it would be a disaster for them, you can't partly campaign on improving democracy, then do something that takes away the democratic voice. Pretty sure the leave bigwigs will have a word with whoever is thinking of challenging the extension

 

[Chippy_boy]

I generally agree with that but it was interesting to see on newsnight that pollster Lord Hayward from the Tories and an ardent remain man called this one for leave - I think he was the only person to call the tight general elections correctly and the Tory majority last year.

Something to do with white van man or a white man in a van winning it for leave

It's going to be a lot closer than I would like I think. I expect the leave camp to continue gaining momentum and I do expect them to be significantly ahead by polling day and the question is, will it be enough? In my judgement, no and Remain will win it, but I am nothing like so sure as I was a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Monkfish]

I hope we do vote leave but.


I absolutely do not want a eu crash, that would be awful for them and us on so many levels.

I want us to reach a sensible accord and agreement with our eu friends and partners that's works for all and others

That we return to the table which allows us to have and build an economic cooperation area (not political or legal) . Where power is decentralised and passed back to us and others. Meps and the parliaments and institutions are scrapped in Brussels.

We help sensibly to manage migration from outside into Europe and manage and control movement out of countries within Europe.

The amount we contribute and others for this new economic cooerperation level is in the millions per year not billions.

Definitely, anyone who wants the EU to have troubles if we do vote to leave clearly doesn't realise how entwined we all are. We could be talking global recession again here if the worst does happen. Surely everyone is sick of the 'austerity' word by now? We leave we want us to be strong, and the EU to be strong.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

Quality post, that.

 

[Monkfish]

It's going to be a lot closer than I would like I think. I expect the leave camp to continue gaining momentum and I do expect them to be significantly ahead by polling day and the question is, will it be enough? In my judgement, no and Remain will win it, but I am nothing like so sure as I was a couple of weeks ago.

you can still get pretty much 3-1 on leave - the bookies are certain of the result

 

[Chippy_boy]

The remain campaign trio were utterly woeful in the debate last night, their default position to virtually every question was that nasty Boris was going to take away all our rights and send us up shit creek without a paddle. The worst was Sturgeon, the hypocrisy of that woman is breathtaking....!

Funny how your own position distorts how you see things. I can't stand the woman myself, and yet I thought she was the best of the six by a country mile. And rather than being a hypocrite, I think she's being INCREDIBLY principled. If the Leave camp were to win, the possibility of another Scottish referendum goes up enormously, and the likelihood of her winning it too. The fact she's campaigning for remain is a testament to her sticking up for her principles.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

The remain campaign trio were utterly woeful in the debate last night, their default position to virtually every question was that nasty Boris was going to take away all our rights and send us up shit creek without a paddle. The worst was Sturgeon, the hypocrisy of that woman is breathtaking....! The remain campaign were controlled and measured in their responses, not screaming like juiced up students, trying to disrupt the answers of the Brexit lot..! The euro Zone is dead in the water and has been for a number of years, anyone who cannot see that is uninformed or just blinkered to the facts.
We will vote to leave for sure and when we do the Eurozone will collapse in on itself, the Germans will bail within a few years and that will be that...!

I'm for the "stay" but agree with you that they didnt do a good job in the debate and can be honest enough to say they frustrate me as much as the "leave!" ! ;) but common sense tells us, if you ask someone a question....they need a straight answer and Boris was asked alot of direct questions and kept deflecting back to the "ins" without giving us any answers....if that was me, I think I would get frustrated .....Maybe thats what a good politician is but I wanted answer's from him.....and even questions about his comments on "the UK people should pay for their NHS and maybe they'd appreciate it more" he wouldnt deny.....Those comments alone tell me he not looking out for anyone's best interests but his own.....

 

[The Doctor]

you can still get pretty much 3-1 on leave - the bookies are certain of the result

And so they were at the last election! They got that soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong!

 

[Ancient Citizen]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

This is probably the most pertinent of any of the 'Leave' comments on here, IMO, although there has been excellent arguments put forward by both sides.
The reason Dave, and the other remainers are desperate to reach out to the youngsters is that the vast majority will be unaware of the contents of this post,
having been within the EU all their lives; I don't blame Dave or the kids, democracy is democracy after all, so Brexiteers can't start foaming at the mouth at this tactic.
I recall everyone being up in arms as the fine detail of the 'Common Market' became clear, and that the UK was now subsidising the massively inefficient French farmers,
the anger as fishing grounds held for centuries were plundered by Spanish Trawlers, etc; etc;
Very good post.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

Great post. Only voting leave allows us to reach a sensible accord and a cooperation agreement on economics as originally envisaged, not this political mess it's become and will continue at pace. Have no doubt if we vote in , merkels and junker see this as an acceptance of their vision of a federal centralised European state and a green light to kick on....

 

[Chippy_boy]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that countries need to be part of the EU in order to be prosperous. This convoluted idea that we are stronger together only works if all countries are willing to put self-interest on the back burner. The evidence we have seen since joining suggests that this is nothing more than a pipe-dream.

We once had the most efficient and prosperous agriculture industry in Europe. This was knocked for six by accepting an agricultural policy which was drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France. How much stronger could our agriculture industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We once had one of the richest and most efficiently managed fishing industry, until we signed up to the Fishing Industries Policy. This basically handed over our waters, resulting in decimation of the fishing industry and destruction of our fishing fleet. How much stronger could our fishing industry have been had we not committed to the EU?

We went from a position of exporting more goods to European countries than we imported, to a position whereby France, Germany and Spain sell much more to us than they are willing to buy from us. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Our government is held in such low esteem by EU counterparts that we lose 80% of cases taken to the Luxembourg courts over issues such as beef exports, beer duty, reducing VAT on energy-saving materials etc etc. How does this benefit us as an EU member?

Had we not have joined, perhaps we we would now be deciding when, where, how and who we traded with worldwide, instead of being forced to accept policies decided by Brussels. Perhaps we'd have thriving agriculture and fishing industries? Perhaps we would be paying less duty on certain products? Perhaps we would still be able to take control of our own destiny by passing laws for our own country, instead of 50% being decided by Brussels?

When we joined the EEC, we signed up to a common market - not a social chapter. The morphing of the EEC into the EU and resulting extension of powers to Brussels has been a complete unwelcome power shift. We were told that we needed to adopt the Euro, and look how that turned out. Did the heavens fall apart when we refused to adopt it and chose to go it alone?

The decision to join this European project called the EU may possibly go down as one of the greatest political blunders in Britain's history.

But we did join Stevie and we are in it. You can't vote of the basis of some theoretical argument about what the UK would be like if we hadn't joined. If we weren't in the EU, we wouldn't have 3 million jobs dependent on it. We wouldn't have all these Japanese and other firms in the UK because they wouldn't have chosen to come here since they wouldn't have been able to manufacture and export freely to the EU.

We are where we are. It's a ludicrous comparison to suggest that country XYZ outside the EU does OK. They've never been dependent on the EU like we are.

 

[Monkfish]

Got a feeling the remain camp are keeping their big guns till towards the end - a long list of businesses that will state that if the UK vote leave they will relocate...