EU referendum

[Manchester_lalala]

Scaremongering

Once again.

 

[EalingBlue2]

It also predates the Government's committment to exempt the NHS from TTIP

Ironic that Ukip are now being used by left wingers to justify the brexit impact on the Nhs, Ukip would say anything to get brexit pretty much

 

[EalingBlue2]

Why would anyone listen to that attention seeking bafoon and his hysterical attention seeking. I am quite worried that he hasn't been laughed out of town. He is our very own Donald Trump.

Millions are

 

[BigJoe#1]

I think so, so let's stick to the net amount and not Boris,s fabrication

I actually agree to that as well, but Boris's figure is correct as the gross figure. Let's stick to between 8.5bn and 10.5bn a year. Strictly speaking we should add back the inward investment figure which is a further 4.5bn -5.5bn.

But sticking with the lower 8.5bn we're talking about a nett contributuion if around £160m a week, not a lot to you maybe, but it's still as a daily cumulating figure a significant amount.

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

It also predates the Government's committment to exempt the NHS from TTIP

Which is still not a given

 

[Tim of the Oak]

That's right from the rest of the EU point of view and the salary example you give is from the point of view of the inland revenue not the individual. Technically right but exceedingly misleading . What matters to the revenue is what they collect not what a gross figure before deductions is

So some people on the Bluemoon forum would have counted the lowest Premier League crowd in Greater Manchester this season - the rags vs Bournemouth - at 75,000 rather than the actual 44,000!

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

Anyway...coming up to 800 votes on the bluemoon poll and Brexit are in the lead ;-)

 

[yep]

David Cameron says ‘… you’re never going to hear me say that Britain couldn’t succeed outside the European Union. Britain is the fifth largest economy in the world. We’ve got a huge amount of talent and resources and brilliant people and we’re members of many important organisations in our world. I’m never going to talk Britain down …’
David Cameron’s speech to the World Economic Forum at Davos on 21 January 2016:
Why the new strategy? The only thing that’s changed is that the opinion polls are running in favour of independence. Why is it so important Remain wins??????

Meanwhile on the even playing field that the EU is for business!
There is far wider awareness that the EU administration in Brussels is especially vulnerable to capture by self-serving corporate interests. Matt Ridley, another enthusiast for free enterprise, said in The Times (22 Feb 2016):
‘The way in which Volkswagen, using carbon-dioxide emissions as a cover, got the rules rewritten to suit diesel engines and discriminate against petrol engines, despite the fact that nitrogen oxide and particulate emissions from diesel were far higher and more dangerous, was only the most visible such scandal.’

Sir James Dyson has spoken out against the regulation of vacuum cleaners, which he says is rigged to suit his main rivals, the German bagged vacuum cleaner manufacturers: ‘Washing machines are tested with washing in them, cars are tested with people in them, and fridges are tested with food in them. But when it came to our request to test vacuum cleaners with dust in them, the big German block of manufacturers complained.’

 

[FanchesterCity]

Not all the money we put into the EU is easy to measure in terms of return. The benefit to business (which is the raison d'etre of the EU) is what the vast majority on either side cannot readily put a hard figure on. There are estimates and analysis etc, but it's still hard to put a hard figure on it, because it's literally invisible. Joe Smith Exports saving 30 minutes of time cross the border, because he's in the EU is very hard to put a figure on, but he knows that an extra 30 minutes on every lorry he exports isn't going to win him more business, only increase his costs and potentially lose business.

This is the problem with claiming 'if we don't pay X' to the EU, then we have X in our pockets, right now to spend. It's true, we would, but it's completely overlooking the cost of the repercussions of not paying it.
It's plugging what you THINK is a leak only to discover you've now increased the pressure on a flowing business pipeline. You've saved X million, and caused X+n damage (where n is the added value of the EU benefits).

Of course, if you believe we just don't get enough back from the EU regardless, then even not paying the X figure into the EU will only save you X - n (where n is the amount of value the EU adds, even if you think it's less than we put in).

The internal EU market is one hell of a value to business, it really is. WIthout it, the trade carries on, it's just less valuable, and we're on an even footing with the rest of the world. Trouble is, the rest of the world isn't doing 50% of it's business that that single customer / supplier and we are. The rest of the world doesn't have that market right on it's doorstep, we do.

We aren't talking about a disastrous blow to a large business - the majority of them will cope with some 2% (just an example) cost of doing businesses. The 'disaster' is that in order to cope with that 2%, the cost of their product will go up, or they will cut costs (jobs). The big businesses won't suffer at all, but they won't absorb the hit, they'll pass it on... to US, the public in prices and / or jobs.
Then there is the effect of a businesses who've set up in the UK precisely because it's within the EU. Moving to France is not a major problem for them. Even if the current businesses stay put and don't move out, any businesses that WAS considering moving here in order to get EU access, isn't going to be doing so once we leave.

Ah I hear some of you say, but what about the NEW businesses that are coming here to invest in a new, better, unrestricted Britain? - well, those looking only to sell INTO the UK will probably do just that, but those looking to take part in this so called 'rest of the world' trade we are taking part in would be crazy to move to the UK... why would they move to the UK if they intended to trade with countries that geographically quite removed from the EU! - particularly to an island nation! They're going to locate to the UK so they can ship goods to Australia, China and the USA? - dream on.

Companies move here because they want to trade with the EU (with or without us being a member of it). No firms are going to be moving here in order to sell to the commonwealth nations, or Russia, or China, or USA. If they are moving here to trade with the EU, then it'll still happen in or out, but it's smoother being 'in'. Smoother = more profit = more prosperity. Less smooth = less profit = less prosperity.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Anyway...coming up to 800 votes on the bluemoon poll and Brexit are in the lead ;-)

It's the rags voting! ;-)

 

[Monkfish]

we're talking about a nett contributuion if around £160m a week

Monkfish dances around his desk, wafting the union jack in one hand and that blue and yellow starry european thing in the other and realises that this truly is the land of hope, and occasionally glory, vowing never to refer to himself in the 3rd person even if it is a made up pseudonym

See you on the other side to pick up whatever pieces we got left - have a good referendum - lets hope its the last one for a while!

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

why would they move to the UK if they intended to trade with countries that geographically quite removed from the EU! - particularly to a island nation! They're going to to locate to the UK so they can ship goods to Australia, China and the USA? - dream on.

Because we're the UK and have been a major trading post for the past few centuries maybe?

Do you seriously think...that just because we leave the EU...formed in the early 90s and only been a thing since I was born in 73...that we will suddenly become shit at attracting business?

Really?

 

[EalingBlue2]

Anyway...coming up to 800 votes on the bluemoon poll and Brexit are in the lead ;-)

But it's slowly closing better than 60:40 is becoming closer to 55:45 blue moon moving in reverse of the official polls

 

[EalingBlue2]

Because we're the UK and have been a major trading post for the past few centuries maybe?

Do you seriously think...that just because we leave the EU...formed in the early 90s and only been a thing since I was born in 73...that we will suddenly become shit at attracting business?

Really?

What happened when we were the worlds biggest economy and had an empire is pretty irrelevant now.

Britain can't compete on education and infrastructure with Asia so if global competition is what is really wanted more productive (ie cheaper) labour is the only choice meaning a reduction in workers rights and more immigration. If it wasn't so sad the irony would be funny

 

[YPhrunts]

Monkfish dances around his desk, wafting the union jack in one hand and that blue and yellow starry european thing in the other and realises that this truly is the land of hope, and occasionally glory, vowing never to refer to himself in the 3rd person even if it is a made up pseudonym

See you on the other side to pick up whatever pieces we got left - have a good referendum - lets hope its the last one for a while!

It won't be. When remain win it will just be the start of a political seismic shift the likes of which we have never experienced.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Because we're the UK and have been a major trading post for the past few centuries maybe?

Do you seriously think...that just because we leave the EU...formed in the early 90s and only been a thing since I was born in 73...that we will suddenly become shit at attracting business?

Really?

That is not what I said...

I said we'd still attract business in or out of the EU, but businesses locating here do so in order to trade with the EU. Nobody moves here because they want to trade with Australia or China.
The leave campaign is saying we need to reduce our dependance on the EU and shift the balance to trading with 'the rest of the world' (the commonwealth is often cited). That is NOT a reason any company will move to the UK!

Want to trade with Australia? set up a base in South Asia, or erm, Australia, not the UK!

You can't ignore our geographical location. 50% of our trade is with the EU... if we were already so attractive to companies wanting to trade with China and Australia. then why didn't companies flock here before? even before the EU. Because it's a stupid place to set up a business that is aiming for the US, Canadian and Asian and Australasian markets.
We might as well have British businesses rushing to locate to Brazil in order to trade with France!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Ironic that Ukip are now being used by left wingers to justify the brexit impact on the Nhs, Ukip would say anything to get brexit pretty much

True. I wish Farrage would lose his passport lol!

He could then stop claiming the record expenses he charges the EU!

 

[steviemc]

I can live with it (not always winning in a democracy). I'm saying that for those who can't, or IF we as a nation can't live with it and the other side won't budge, then there's no option. But, don't paint that option as 'preferred' and 'it's going to lose the shackles and lead to prosperity'! Tell it like it really is - it's going to be a painful but necessary withdrawal.

I'm with the 'ins'

I think the EU does need some serious reform, and I am worried that if we vote 'in' the EU might see it as a 'win' for them, and carry on. But I hope they'll see it as the most clear warning they've ever had and be more open to change. We aren't the only nation who could teeter on the edge of pulling out, and they know it.
If people really do value the sovereignty of our laws, and really do value immigration control above all else, then so be it. But I reckon they'll value their jobs more. They just don't appreciate how at risk some (not all) are.

I think there's little hope that we'll see serious reform - certainly not serious reform that will benefit the UK. Since the inception of this supposed idealistic union the UK's popularity and swaying power has been in gradual decline. Too many different countries have different ideals and needs to enable serious reform.

Like it or not, we are often the unpopular kid at the party in this club. Despite our supposed economic strength, any chance we may have had of having a large hand in navigating a path for the future of this union was removed a long time ago.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Which is still not a given

Any U turn would be grounds for a referendum lol!

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

What happened when we were the worlds biggest economy and had an empire is pretty irrelevant now.

Britain can't compete on education and infrastructure with Asia so if global competition is what is really wanted more productive (ie cheaper) labour is the only choice meaning a reduction in workers rights and more immigration. If it wasn't so sad the irony would be funny

As a remain voter do you really want to be bringing up education?

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/17/england-10000-gap-primary-school-places