EU referendum

[Tim of the Oak]

78% Agree with you to leave.
484829 voters. Share your opinion!
Vote on Daily Telegraph website tonight.

No thanks. Not after the DT tried to use the Paris terrorist atrocities to support Brexit!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

If we remain in we are heading for political and fiscal Union. The EU will not stay where it is today, but will keep drawing decision making powers away from nation states and into central bureaucracy.

That's one are where Cameron's agreement with the EU is clear cut and we won't be joining any political or fiscal Union!

 

[mcfc1632]

Feel free to explain where I said France or Spain (or indeed the UK's) health services are funded by the EU palbud.

I was making fun of the fact that the leave campaign were using an improved health service as their main point of reasoning for leaving the EU. The improved version looked a damn lot like a lot of EU countries' health service to me. Although of course it goes without saying that being in the EU means cheaper imports means heavier consumption by industry means continued growth means increased GDP means more taxes to government means more money to spend on NHS.

Goes without saying?? Only to the remain side - the point being made by leave is that these 'going without saying benefits' will be balanced by benefits of leaving and that the added benefit is that we would be able to self-determine on which priorities we direct any and all of our funding

 

[mcfc1632]

Do you work in an office and have a desk? If so, your employer will presumably have enough desks and office space for all employees. Now suppose the firm takes on loads more people but doesn't increase the amount of office space or desks. Then there aren't sufficient resources to go round and if you don't get in early enough, you can't do your job. With free movement of labour, people are going to move to countries where wages are higher and where there are jobs. But public resources like medical services and schools are finite. That's the problem.

I've no problem with immigration per se and, for me, it's not the key issue but it has to be manageable and take into account pressure on scarce resources.

Remainers just stick their heads in the sand and label the Leave position as being against immigration - it is the shallowness of their argument that they cannot accept that the position (and desperate need for this country) is to control immigration and have as many immigrants as we want in whatever skills set we need informed by the opportunity to provide jobs for the people of Britain.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I've lost a fair bit of interest in this debate as the same old points get regurgitated. It was refreshing yesterday when the Boris hypocrisy video was posted but his current opportunism is no surprise.

I just wanted to add one new point with regard to immigration given I have some experience of international recruitment from outside the EU. (These were two year placements for international doctors who then went home better skilled to support their own health services).

Part of the reason the Tories haven't been able to control immigration is down to employer behaviour. Yes often we need the skills but often HR and recruiters in organisations have made it a perk of their job to travel across the globe to recruit.

George Osborne (who I am no big fan of) has at least done something about encouraging employers to grow their own workforces by introducing an apprenticeship levy from April 17. Organisations (with a pay bill of over £3m) will have to spend 0.5% of their pay bill on apprenticeships. This comes to over £200m for the NHS alone who will now invest More in developing skills in the local populations!

Border controls / rules alone won't solve the immigration issues.

 

[Credo]

That's one are where Cameron's agreement with the EU is clear cut and we won't be joining any political or fiscal Union!

And that is the point about next Thursday’s referendum. The options are not Leave or the status quo; they are Leave or be drawn further into the next stages of the EU project currently being decided in the capitals of Europe, whatever their voters might want, because they are not being consulted. Daily Telegraph today.

 

[mcfc1632]

Headlines in many of tomorrow's papers...

If there is a vote to leave there will be a post Brexit Emergency Budget and taxes for everyone will rise...

Talk about blackmail and scare tactics!

The man is fucking evil, blue or no fucking blue!

If there is a Leave vote I fully expect Osborne to be in No 11 and along with some sweeteners offered to the UK by the EU him to do some drastic things that hurt the citizens in preparation for another referendum in a couple of years (at the end of the negotiations) to make sure we get the right answer 2nd time around

 

[Credo]

No thanks. Not after the DT tried to use the Paris terrorist atrocities to support Brexit!

78% of DT voters want OUT.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

And that is the point about next Thursday’s referendum. The options are not Leave or the status quo; they are Leave or be drawn further into the next stages of the EU project currently being decided in the capitals of Europe, whatever their voters might want, because they are not being consulted. Daily Telegraph today.

Thanks Credo. We need to be a little bit careful in believing the Daily Telegraph (that I bought for years) on the EU. Even Farrage had to correct the DT Journo for exaggerating how Mcr money we send to the EU / on last week's Question Time!

 

[Credo]

Thanks Credo. We need to be a little bit careful in believing the Daily Telegraph (that I bought for years) on the EU. Even Farrage had to correct the DT Journo for exaggerating how Mcr money we send to the EU / on last week's Question Time!

One writer in favour of the EU wrote this in today's DT.
Yet I do so with a deep sense of foreboding, for despite the benefits Britain has enjoyed in its 43 years of membership, the EU has become a dysfunctional Byzantium of paralysing political and economic complexity. It has not been possible for a long time now to be an enthusiastic European. Much of what was good about the EU as a force for peace through trade and economic advancement has long since ceased to be true.

And he was one in favour!

Vote leave - take back control.

 

[mcfc1632]

The problem is population increase in this country - yes immigration has benefited the country economically - but what good is that if schools, doctors, hospitals and other public services are too full ? We can keep saying 'build more' .. But where does it end ?

Surely there would come a time where this country can not cope with so many people - and in certain places that is happening now, we have an ageing population and other factors but the fact remains, immigration is putting a burden on our public services and having very little control of our borders is worrying.

I'm a remainer on the EU. but when it comes to immigration and population increase we don't have a proper answer. Just that immigration is 'good' for the country. That doesn't answer people's concerns.

well said - it is refreshing for a Remainer to face up to that - if the remain campaign would also do so and address the issue they might not haemorrhage so many votes

For me the trajectory though is that we are currently a very attractive country and attract what is increasingly becoming a flood and causing a downward spiral on public services and a massive drain on the public purse. There is an obvious way that this will stop - we will eventually become drained and a far less attractive a destination and the floods will subside - that seems like an unattractive outcome does it not?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

78% of DT voters want OUT.

I'm surprised it's not higher.

After all the Orlando massacre was partly the fault of the EU!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

well said - it is refreshing for a Remainer to face up to that - if the remain campaign wold also do and address the issue they might not haemorrhage so many votes

For me the trajectory though is that we are currently a very attractive country and attract what is increasingly becoming a flood and causing a downward spiral on public services and a massive drain on the public purse. There is an obvious way that this will stop - we will eventually become drained and a far less attractive a destination and the floods will subside - that seems like an unattractive outcome does it not?

I've said many times immigration needs to be addressed so here are some ideas!
- stop bombing the Middle East
- don't always play by the letter of the law. The French don't when they dismantle camps etc.
- create more jobs for local people through better skills and career paths
- implement the restrictions on unemployment and family allowances.
- stop multi-language public service advice (except for genuine refugees).
- build allies within the EU on sustainable solutions!
- tighten the tax laws so rich Russians, French pay tax on property bought and sold!

 

[stonerblue]

no worries mate i respect your opinion, I'm getting sick of all the arguing going on in this debate.

you say you haven't been affected by it, but do you live in the area/street where all the immigrants are moving into? are you on minimum wage ? trying to get a council house? because its having a huge effect on a lot of those areas.

i can't see holiday prices rocketing, places like spain and greece rely so heavily on brits it would damage their own industries. passport ques isn't really a major issue for me, as long as we have some control. in some cases young people dont want those jobs, but lots of times they are never offered to brits in the first place. I'm 22 just finished uni and whilst looking for work i dont mind doing that kind of work. difference being, i can't get on the council house waiting list and even if i do i wont get anywhere for a few years.

immigration is fine, ( huge irish links in ym family) but i think it needs control behind it. hard workers yes, but whats happened recently is thousands of very low skilled works are coming in, and doing jobs british people could do/ want to do. what i see near where i live, is lots of families coming here getting houses and benefits, barely speak a word of english. huge new schools are having to be built, more traffic, new houses everywhere. its not all eu immigration, but there are huge divides especially in manchester between communities.
do you think 180,000 immigrants coming in every year is sustainable ?

where do you live cheadle hulme blue?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Here are a few who strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

And a few that think we should leave
- Boris Johnson
- Ian Ducan Smith
- Michael Gove
- Donald Trump
- UKIP
- Britain First
- The Sun

 

[sir baconface]

I've lost a fair bit of interest in this debate as the same old points get regurgitated. It was refreshing yesterday when the Boris hypocrisy video was posted but his current opportunism is no surprise.

I just wanted to add one new point with regard to immigration given I have some experience of international recruitment from outside the EU. (These were two year placements for international doctors who then went home better skilled to support their own health services).

Part of the reason the Tories haven't been able to control immigration is down to employer behaviour. Yes often we need the skills but often HR and recruiters in organisations have made it a perk of their job to travel across the globe to recruit.

George Osborne (who I am no big fan of) has at least done something about encouraging employers to grow their own workforces by introducing an apprenticeship levy from April 17. Organisations (with a pay bill of over £3m) will have to spend 0.5% of their pay bill on apprenticeships. This comes to over £200m for the NHS alone who will now invest More in developing skills in the local populations!

Some good points here, Tim. Many employers just want to pluck people off trees, rather than train them, if they can get away with it. And if foreign, more compliant labour is available, then so much the better. Employers don't pick up the consequences of strained infrastructure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about all employers here but enough to make a difference.

However the public sector is equally culpable in its own way. It seems incapable of forecasting workforce requirements a few years ahead and then setting out its stall to train successors. The NHS is a prime example.

The truth is, governments of all hues are good talkers and piss poor managers with little commercial experience.

 

[sir baconface]

Here are a few who strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

And a few that think we should leave
- Boris Johnson
- Ian Ducan Smith
- Michael Gove
- Donald Trump
- UKIP
- Britain First
- The Sun

And 680 million people support the rags....

 

[geoff clipp]

Do you work in an office and have a desk? If so, your employer will presumably have enough desks and office space for all employees. Now suppose the firm takes on loads more people but doesn't increase the amount of office space or desks. Then there aren't sufficient resources to go round and if you don't get in early enough, you can't do your job. With free movement of labour, people are going to move to countries where wages are higher and where there are jobs. But public resources like medical services and schools are finite. That's the problem.

I've no problem with immigration per se and, for me, it's not the key issue but it has to be manageable and take into account pressure on scarce resources.

I hear what people are saying with regard to this but (and correct me if wrong) there doesn't seem to be much argument on the fact that these extra people are putting more into the economy than taking out. Isn't problem the government's failure to reinvest that money into public services?

To go with your analogy of being within a firm. I see it more like, imagine you worked at a desk for a company but eventually you realised you had nobody to clean the bogs, or order the stationery or fix the machines. So you get some more staff in to do that and the company becomes more productive but now the canteen is now longer big enough, and there aren't enough toilets or car parking spaces for everyone. So you ask the boss if he could maybe do something about that using some of this extra profit but unfortunately he can't because he's already spent it on a new Ferrari and also new Ferraris for all of his friends.

Like I say, I don't believe immigration will change anyway and nobody has addressed the point as to why we accept more people from outside EU. It seems crazy to me that it's the one issue that will decide it for many people when they will notice very little change.

 

[CityStu]

Here are a few who strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

And a few that think we should leave
- Boris Johnson
- Ian Ducan Smith
- Michael Gove
- Donald Trump
- UKIP
- Britain First
- The Sun

Which group of millionaires do you think best represents your relationship with the EU?

 

[grunge]

The media vs the EU.

Lots of media headlines against the EU and the actual truth behind them. 1992-2012.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

There's a lot!