Figueroa's Handball

[macmanson]

If you took the top 40 strikers (2 per team x 20) in the PL, would more than half of them have a 100% percent goal scoring opportunity in that case. Not sure that you could say that, so if they only "might" score then that's not obvious by the letter of the law, hence a yellow for USB and not a red card.

I've got to disagree there. I'd expect 100% of the Premier League's strikers to have a goal-scoring opportunity in that situation. Not all of them would score, granted, but that's completely irrelevant. They'd be clean through on goal with not a single other player anywhere near them; of course it's a goal-scoring opportunity, regardless of who the player involved is.

He would have been sent off for a tug of the shirt or a trip in the same position, so handball shouldn't be treated any differently. It was blatant cheating.

And when you say USB is a catch-all for things not explicitly covered by the laws of the game, I think you actually mean that it gives referees complete carte blanche to make it all up as they go along.

I'd be wiling to take a wager that Andy Carroll gets chased down. :) As for the last comment, that would be what referees jokingly call "Law 18". Unfortunately, the entire game is judged by the opinion of the referee, so there is always inconsistency in calls. The USB is used as a catch all because the Cutionable Offences are defined as:

A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:
1. is guilty of unsporting behavior
2. shows dissent by word or action
3. persistently infringes the Laws of the Game
4. delays the restart of play
5. fails to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick or free kick
6. enters or re-enters the field of play without The Referee's permission
7. deliberately leaves the field of play without The Referee's permission.

Sending-Off Offences
A player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences: 
1. is guilty of serious foul play
2. is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or any other person
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7. receives a second caution in the same match.

When it comes to the 10 direct free kick offences there are 3 levels you are supposed to consider. Was it careless (award a foul), was it reckless (aware a foul and caution the player) or was it dangerous (straight red).

Now if you consider the foul the player has committed to be reckless, it's a cautionable offense by a yellow but we have no category in the 7 for which to classify this offence other than USB.

I totally agree with your statement that it was blatant cheating, however, by letter of the law the showing of a yellow card to Figueroa wasn't a biased call. The referee got this call correct but was quite terrible overall. The tackle by Kaboul should have been a yellow carda offence as it was reckless. The penalty was the right decision, but a card still should have been issued.<br /><br />-- Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:16 am --<br /><br />

I was always under the impression that a keeper is sent off if he handles outside the area, oh yes unless your called Reina, who was that against again

Yes, that should have been a red card. A GK is considered a regular outfield player outside of his penalty area. The bollox put forth about his arms being in the natural position for a GK is bogus because he's outside his penalty area and doesn't get that consideration. Referee was probably not courageous enough to make that call in such a big game.

 

[macmanson]

OP

It's DOGSO (Denial of an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity) not DOGGSO. Using this interpretation I'd agree it's not an Obvious goal scoring opportunity as he's in the centre circle, ball not under control, defenders within 15 yards who could close him down in the space to the wigan goal. All of these conditions, to me, confirm that it wasnt an obvious GSO as there is too much for aguero to do before he gets to goal (and suggesting he's world class and would out pace the defence is not a valid argument against this in law)

yes I am a ref, and yes i agree with a yellow

-- Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:09 pm --

Deliberate handball denying a goal is a red card, see Suarez in the WC.

come on these are 2 completely different incidents! one was made on the goal line, the other on the half way line, you can't compare the 2

Thanks for the backup eshiers1. Your points are exactly what I would have considered. However, the ancronym for us has been changed to DOGGSO, short for Denying an Obvious Goal or Goal Scoring Opportunity. I guess they are trying to emphasize the point that both should be considered.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Well Mr. Referee I reviewed it with a panel of senior referees myself and they all disagreed with you.

 

[macmanson]

Well Mr. Referee I reviewed it with a panel of senior referees myself and they all disagreed with you.

That's good to hear. Would you mind putting forth the arguments they used to determine that it was an obvious goal scoring opportunity by the Laws of the Game? I'm always up for being educated. :)

 

[ell]

Correct me if im wrong but I remember Ian Walker the goalkeeper giving away a freekick then saving it when it was taken quickly, he was given a red card

 

[i went to rotherham]

It was not a red card because it was not a DOGGSO (Denial of Goal or Goal Scoring Opportunity) by it's strict definition. While it is true that Augero likley would have skinned Figeuroa to goal, the evaluation of DOGGSO has to be based on whether it was a clear chance for any player at that level and on that mark it's not a clear goal or goal scoring opportunity.

What???

Figueroa's momentum is taking him into our half, Aguero has already turned and is heading into the Wigan half, in a split second, Aguero can easily open up 10 or 15 yards over Figueroa, with no-one else other than Al-Habsi to beat.

How the fuck, at Premier League level, is that not a goal scoring opportunity?

Never mind at Premier League level, its an opportunity at ANY level!
Through on goal with only the keeper within 20 yards would be an opportunity for my Nan, let alone Sergio ! ( no guarantees Nan would have stuck it home, but still an opportunity)

 

[macmanson]

Had Savic caught the ball yesterday what colour do you think the card would have been i'd lay good odds it wouldn't have been yellow.

The correct call would have been a yellow but I suspect like you that it would have been ruled DOGGSO and a red issued.

Clearly your argument is flawed.

Defoe scored, so had Savic handled, that was a goal scoring opportunity. HE BLOODY SCORED FFS.

Defoe scored because Savic's poor header sent it into his path. Defoe had no control of the ball at the point that Savic headed it, so no goal scoring opportunity. It's a tactical foul if he handballs at that point, not a denial of a goal scoring opportunity as there is not a 100% chance he would have scored.

 

[cheddar404]

The correct call would have been a yellow but I suspect like you that it would have been ruled DOGGSO and a red issued.

Clearly your argument is flawed.

Defoe scored, so had Savic handled, that was a goal scoring opportunity. HE BLOODY SCORED FFS.

Defoe scored because Savic's poor header sent it into his path. Defoe had no control of the ball at the point that Savic headed it, so no goal scoring opportunity. It's a tactical foul if he handballs at that point, not a denial of a goal scoring opportunity as there is not a 100% chance he would have scored.

You are taking the piss, right? If this is true, then I am finding another sport to watch.

 

[coulsonblue]

Clearly your argument is flawed.

Defoe scored, so had Savic handled, that was a goal scoring opportunity. HE BLOODY SCORED FFS.

Defoe scored because Savic's poor header sent it into his path. Defoe had no control of the ball at the point that Savic headed it, so no goal scoring opportunity. It's a tactical foul if he handballs at that point, not a denial of a goal scoring opportunity as there is not a 100% chance he would have scored.

You are taking the piss, right? If this is true, then I am finding another sport to watch.

macmanson is just trying to make out he has some extra knowledge that we don't have.

The DOGSO (note not double G Mr Macmanson), has to take into account many things including distance from goal. However, this doesn't alter the probability of scoring (which is also listed as a factor to take into account).

I'll copy the rule down so that Mr Macmanson has no comeback on this and the thread can be laid to rest.

Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding whether
to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity:
• the distance between the offence and the goal
• the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• the direction of the play
• the location and number of defenders
• the offence which denies an opponent an obvious goalscoring opportunity
may be an offence that incurs a direct free kick or an indirect free kick

-half way
-Aguero was running towards where the ball would bounce had it not been handled, and has the skill to dribble and shoot.
-Towards goal.
-No wigan players in their half of the pitch, Aguero would've been alone.

The only criteria that is up for debate in this case is the distance argument.

Your argument about "tactical foul" is, frankly, bullshit.

EDIT: On page 5 of this thread you have also incorrectly said that handball outside the area is an indirect free-kick. Not so. It's a direct free-kick. Back to ref school for you.

 

[TheMidnightBlue]

I was under the impression that deliberate handball - which is what Figueroa committed - was an automatic red card.

Anywhere on the pitch, regardless of whether it was a DOGGSO, or not.

No, it is a tactical foul. A handball by definition has to be deliberate for it to be a handball. (ie: hand to ball and not ball to hand). Law 12 clearly states that a Direct Free Kick should be awarded to the opposing team if a player handles the ball DELIBERATELY (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area.)

A penalty kick is awarded if a defending team player deliberately handles the ball inside his own penalty area (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area).

A red card is only issued if it was DOGGSO like the Suarez incident. A penalty is awarded regardless of where the handball occured in the box.

-- Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:28 pm --

I think its interesting that a group of referees get together and back up the decision of another referee - shock.

They are effectively saying that Sergio Aguero running unaccompanied into the visitors half of the field is not a goal scoring opportunity. He had to run 40 yards before he would be in the penalty area, with at least a 10 yard start, if not 15.

I don't think having a group of referees backing up your viewpoint carries much weight. The officials this season have been poor each week - Howard Webb really didn't have that much to do yesterday and still managed to miss things / get things wrong.

The Balotelli incident aside, he also gave a free kick against David Silva when Kaboul dived across and headed for a corner - for dangerous play presumably as he raised his foot. Silva 5'7" and Kaboul 6'2" - what chance did he have of kicking him in the head unless Kaboul is throwing himself to the floor?

The standard of refs has been shocking all season and we see it time and time again at the Etihad and then on Match Of The Day.

Tell me one thing ...... when Skrtel brought down Yaya in the box during the league game was that not denying a goal scoring opportunity? He didn't even get a yellow card for that - and he was lucky to avoid punishment for crashing through the back of Milner during the first half of the same game.

Referees are all the same, useless. Linesmen are just as bad as they shit themselves if anything happens and flag for a free kick as soon as someone falls over. They can't see obvious stuff right in front of them and then flag for an offence on the other side of the pitch.

Webb had nothing to do on Sunday really - and still cocked it up.

Not really arguing that officiating hasn't been poor, as it has been. Just arguing that by the letter of the law, the referee was correct to award simply a yellow for a tactical foul and not a red for DOGGSO in this case.

Eh? One of the greatest strikers currently playing footballer clean through on goal without an opposition player in sight is not a goal scoring opportunity? The ref wasn't applying the laws of the game correctly and it was a red card.