Fukushima - The cover-up, the lies, the facts & the figures

uncle charlie wilson said:
pauldominic said:
BulgarianPride said:
No more infant gangsters.

Evolution will manage it trust me.

Survival of the fittest.

Maybe Jesus will come back.

Why did you remove your previous post claiming our nuclear facilities are as safe as they come?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/4589321.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12462744

With regards to a meltdown, that's a very real possibility at any reactor on the planet, regardless of the safety measures in place to prevent such a scenario. That threat will forever remain with nuclear power, the two go hand in hand, and no amount of safety measures and preventative planning based entirely on theory with ever change that.

Your not exactly pro nuclear are you ;-)


but the problems with the industry are due to legacy wastes

these thing where created during the 50's 60's and in some part the 70's. The attitude back then was not focused on what to do with the waste it was initially about the rush for Pu for the arms race then on to the first commercial reactors with repossessing again for the Pu for nuclear weapons. The 50's and 60's was all about the cold war and the attitude then was "we'll sort that out latter someone will come up with good idea to sort that out" The issues from the 70 was the energy crisis and the upping of power production from the magnox fleet beyond what the reprocessing plants could handle. These problem still exist but they are being tackled now and it will take time to sort out and it will cost billions long term to sort out. None of the older facilities were design to be decommission after coming to the end of their operational lifetime. All the new facilities are now designed with decommissioning in mind even down to how it going to be paid for.

With regards to the whole meltdown issue I think I'll happily refer to the experts who access the reactor design. The last 2 new reactor designs that are planned for new build in the UK have been approved in other countries and have gone though a rigorous design validation here in the UK.

our industry has faults but with each issue the industry improves and learns from it's mistakes. We've had minor leaks and the only BIG incident was back in the 50's with the windscale fire

anyhow Nuclear is coming back the UK's power requirement is going up, gas and oil will run out and get more and more expensive before it does. Renewables can't hit the power targets need but they will have a place in wide picture regarding energy generation.
 
Skashion said:
Nuclear fusion is the future.

I think it may well be. But as I alluded to in my OP, there are many vested interest to consider, which treat the technology as a threat. It is in the interests of many to perpetuate the myth of conventional nuclear power.

The development and research into the feasibility of Thorium reactors struggle for this very reason. If I recall correctly, I read in one particular article that there is a research facility in the UK which receives little or no government funding, despite the fact that with the amount of Thorium that can be found naturally in the British Isles we could lead the technology.

The Belgian government is investing hundreds of millions into the technology. But due to the lack of universal backing it receives at present it appears as though it will never become a genuine reality, certainly not in the short to medium term.

An interesting video on Nuclear Fusion for those who may be interested;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk&feature=related[/youtube]
 
uncle charlie wilson said:
Skashion said:
Nuclear fusion is the future.

I think it may well be. But as I alluded to in my OP, there are many vested interest to consider, which treat the technology as a threat. It is in the interests of many to perpetuate the myth of conventional nuclear power.

The development and research into the feasibility of Thorium reactors struggle for this very reason. If I recall correctly, I read in one particular article that there is a research facility in the UK which receives little or no government funding, despite the fact that with the amount of Thorium that can be found naturally in the British Isles we could lead the technology.

The Belgian government is investing hundreds of millions into the technology. But due to the lack of universal backing it receives at present it appears as though it will never become a genuine reality, certainly not in the short to medium term.

An interesting video on Nuclear Fusion for those who may be interested;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk&feature=related[/youtube]


Thorium fuels are more expensive to produce than Uranium based fuels so that why Thorium not been look at extensively due to that reason
 
uncle charlie wilson you are making the wrong conclusion. Nuclear power is not the problem it is the waste management. Look at our regular garbabe, we leave a legacy for future generations. It may not be radio active but it still kills the land.

Nuclear power has it's advantages and disadvantages. The goal is to minimize the disadvantages and not completely remove nuclear power.

Even nuclear fusion will come with some bad "side effects". It is unavoidable with human technology. It will always have flaws, and the goal is to minimize the flaws.
 
nickson71 said:
uncle charlie wilson said:
pauldominic said:
Evolution will manage it trust me.

Survival of the fittest.

Maybe Jesus will come back.

Why did you remove your previous post claiming our nuclear facilities are as safe as they come?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/4589321.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12462744

With regards to a meltdown, that's a very real possibility at any reactor on the planet, regardless of the safety measures in place to prevent such a scenario. That threat will forever remain with nuclear power, the two go hand in hand, and no amount of safety measures and preventative planning based entirely on theory with ever change that.

Your not exactly pro nuclear are you ;-)


but the problems with the industry are due to legacy wastes

these thing where created during the 50's 60's and in some part the 70's. The attitude back then was not focused on what to do with the waste it was initially about the rush for Pu for the arms race then on to the first commercial reactors with repossessing again for the Pu for nuclear weapons. The 50's and 60's was all about the cold war and the attitude then was "we'll sort that out latter someone will come up with good idea to sort that out" The issues from the 70 was the energy crisis and the upping of power production from the magnox fleet beyond what the reprocessing plants could handle. These problem still exist but they are being tackled now and it will take time to sort out and it will cost billions long term to sort out. None of the older facilities were design to be decommission after coming to the end of their operational lifetime. All the new facilities are now designed with decommissioning in mind even down to how it going to be paid for.

With regards to the whole meltdown issue I think I'll happily refer to the experts who access the reactor design. The last 2 new reactor designs that are planned for new build in the UK have been approved in other countries and have gone though a rigorous design validation here in the UK.

our industry has faults but with each issue the industry improves and learns from it's mistakes. We've had minor leaks and the only BIG incident was back in the 50's with the windscale fire

anyhow Nuclear is coming back the UK's power requirement is going up, gas and oil will run out and get more and more expensive before it does. Renewables can't hit the power targets need but they will have a place in wide picture regarding energy generation.

I don't trust the industry.

They obscure every single thing they do.

They spin, they manipulate, they misinform and they lie.

I don't trust them to safely lead us into a 'new generation' of nuclear power. Despite what you seem to be suggesting, there is little to suggest that the new reactors will be much safer than the last. They will remain Fission reactors, and it remains conventional nuclear power with all its inherent dangers.

I read not so long ago that one of these planned new facilities was to be sited on, or in very close proximity to a major floodplain.

The industry absolutely stinks, they answer to no-one, and all while holding the power of the split atom.

I genuinely fear what they're capable of.

-- Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:28 pm --

nickson71 said:
uncle charlie wilson said:
Skashion said:
Nuclear fusion is the future.

I think it may well be. But as I alluded to in my OP, there are many vested interest to consider, which treat the technology as a threat. It is in the interests of many to perpetuate the myth of conventional nuclear power.

The development and research into the feasibility of Thorium reactors struggle for this very reason. If I recall correctly, I read in one particular article that there is a research facility in the UK which receives little or no government funding, despite the fact that with the amount of Thorium that can be found naturally in the British Isles we could lead the technology.

The Belgian government is investing hundreds of millions into the technology. But due to the lack of universal backing it receives at present it appears as though it will never become a genuine reality, certainly not in the short to medium term.

An interesting video on Nuclear Fusion for those who may be interested;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk&feature=related[/youtube]


Thorium fuels are more expensive to produce than Uranium based fuels so that why Thorium not been look at extensively due to that reason

Absolute nonsense. Substantiate what you just said please.<br /><br />-- Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:36 pm --<br /><br />
BulgarianPride said:
uncle charlie wilson you are making the wrong conclusion. Nuclear power is not the problem it is the waste management. Look at our regular garbabe, we leave a legacy for future generations. It may not be radio active but it still kills the land.

Nuclear power has it's advantages and disadvantages. The goal is to minimize the disadvantages and not completely remove nuclear power.

Even nuclear fusion will come with some bad "side effects". It is unavoidable with human technology. It will always have flaws, and the goal is to minimize the flaws.

No, you my friend are making the wrong conclusion.

There are so many issues which accompany nuclear power, that I'd struggle to effectively and accurately list all of them if I was asked to do so.

Although I may, at some point, attempt to do exactly that in another exhaustive post when time allows it, so watch this space.
 
We can bury our heads in the sand forever guys, but we all know what happens next.

godzilla.jpg
 
uncle charlie wilson said:
Absolute nonsense. Substantiate what you just said please.


that's easy if Thorium was cheaper than Uranium fuels why are there currently no commercial thorium reactors. Electric companies would take a cheaper option if it was available to make more profit.

"Thorium can be used as a nuclear fuel. Although not fissile itself, Th-232 will absorb slow neutrons to produce uranium-233 (U-233)a, which is fissile (and long-lived). The irradiated fuel can then be unloaded from the reactor, the U-233 separated from the thorium, and fed back into another reactor as part of a closed fuel cycle. Alternatively, U-233 can be bred from thorium in a blanket, the U-233 separated, and then fed into the core.

Over the last 40 years there has been interest in utilising thorium as a nuclear fuel since it is more abundant in the Earth's crust than uranium. Also, all of the mined thorium is potentially useable in a reactor, compared with the 0.7% of natural uranium in today's reactorsb, so some 40 times the amount of energy per unit mass might theoretically be available (without recourse to fast neutron reactors). But this relative advantage vanishes if fast neutron reactors are used for uranium."

that sound like a more complex fuel cycle than uranium

Thorium is being developed as a fuel but it not there yet as a major fuel. India is at the forefront of thorium reactor development sole due to the fact that it doesn't have a lot of uranium as natural resources but it's got a lot of thorium.

"Developing a thorium-based fuel cycle

Despite the thorium fuel cycle having a number of attractive features, development has always run into difficulties.

The main attractive features are:

The possibility of utilising a very abundant resource which has hitherto been of so little interest that it has never been quantified properly.
The production of power with few long-lived transuranic elements in the waste.
Reduced radioactive wastes generally.
The problems include:

The high cost of fuel fabrication, due partly to the high radioactivity of U-233 chemically separated from the irradiated thorium fuel. Separated U-233 is always contaminated with traces of U-232 (69 year half-life but whose daughter products such as thallium-208 are strong gamma emitters with very short half-lives). Although this confers proliferation resistance to the fuel cycle by making U-233 hard to handle and easy to detect, it results in increased costs.
The similar problems in recycling thorium itself due to highly radioactive Th-228 (an alpha emitter with two-year half life) present.
Some concern over weapons proliferation risk of U-233 (if it could be separated on its own), although many designs such as the Radkowsky Thorium Reactor address this concern.
The technical problems (not yet satisfactorily solved) in reprocessing solid fuels. However, with some designs, in particular the molten salt reactor (MSR), these problems are likely to largely disappear.
Much development work is still required before the thorium fuel cycle can be commercialised, and the effort required seems unlikely while (or where) abundant uranium is available. In this respect, recent international moves to bring India into the ambit of international trade might result in the country ceasing to persist with the thorium cycle, as it now has ready access to traded uranium and conventional reactor designs.

Nevertheless, the thorium fuel cycle, with its potential for breeding fuel without the need for fast neutron reactors, holds considerable potential in the long-term. It is a significant factor in the long-term sustainability of nuclear energy."

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html

that were the info came from
 
Fukushima - The cover-up, the lies, the facts & the figures

Edit: don't wanna talk about this actually. Sorry.
 
uncle charlie wilson said:
An interesting video on Nuclear Fusion for those who may be interested;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk&feature=related[/youtube]
That's not about fusion. Thorium reactor research is worth funding though. I have an extremely long-term view of things in this regard. Fusion is the future. It offers scalability and fuel in limitless abundance. However, it could be another century before it is fully commercialised and powering your house. I'd definitely settle for fusion powering my house before I die (assuming I live to my life expectancy). It will likely be another until it is perfected to the point where it can be employed by spacecraft and the like. Mr. Fusion is sadly far beyond our reach and will take many more, if ever. Could Thorium be a decent stopgap, it's worth finding out.
 
nickson71 said:
uncle charlie wilson said:
Absolute nonsense. Substantiate what you just said please.


that's easy if Thorium was cheaper than Uranium fuels why are there currently no commercial thorium reactors. Electric companies would take a cheaper option if it was available to make more profit.

"Thorium can be used as a nuclear fuel. Although not fissile itself, Th-232 will absorb slow neutrons to produce uranium-233 (U-233)a, which is fissile (and long-lived). The irradiated fuel can then be unloaded from the reactor, the U-233 separated from the thorium, and fed back into another reactor as part of a closed fuel cycle. Alternatively, U-233 can be bred from thorium in a blanket, the U-233 separated, and then fed into the core.

Over the last 40 years there has been interest in utilising thorium as a nuclear fuel since it is more abundant in the Earth's crust than uranium. Also, all of the mined thorium is potentially useable in a reactor, compared with the 0.7% of natural uranium in today's reactorsb, so some 40 times the amount of energy per unit mass might theoretically be available (without recourse to fast neutron reactors). But this relative advantage vanishes if fast neutron reactors are used for uranium."

that sound like a more complex fuel cycle than uranium

Thorium is being developed as a fuel but it not there yet as a major fuel. India is at the forefront of thorium reactor development sole due to the fact that it doesn't have a lot of uranium as natural resources but it's got a lot of thorium.

"Developing a thorium-based fuel cycle

Despite the thorium fuel cycle having a number of attractive features, development has always run into difficulties.

The main attractive features are:

The possibility of utilising a very abundant resource which has hitherto been of so little interest that it has never been quantified properly.
The production of power with few long-lived transuranic elements in the waste.
Reduced radioactive wastes generally.
The problems include:

The high cost of fuel fabrication, due partly to the high radioactivity of U-233 chemically separated from the irradiated thorium fuel. Separated U-233 is always contaminated with traces of U-232 (69 year half-life but whose daughter products such as thallium-208 are strong gamma emitters with very short half-lives). Although this confers proliferation resistance to the fuel cycle by making U-233 hard to handle and easy to detect, it results in increased costs.
The similar problems in recycling thorium itself due to highly radioactive Th-228 (an alpha emitter with two-year half life) present.
Some concern over weapons proliferation risk of U-233 (if it could be separated on its own), although many designs such as the Radkowsky Thorium Reactor address this concern.
The technical problems (not yet satisfactorily solved) in reprocessing solid fuels. However, with some designs, in particular the molten salt reactor (MSR), these problems are likely to largely disappear.
Much development work is still required before the thorium fuel cycle can be commercialised, and the effort required seems unlikely while (or where) abundant uranium is available. In this respect, recent international moves to bring India into the ambit of international trade might result in the country ceasing to persist with the thorium cycle, as it now has ready access to traded uranium and conventional reactor designs.

Nevertheless, the thorium fuel cycle, with its potential for breeding fuel without the need for fast neutron reactors, holds considerable potential in the long-term. It is a significant factor in the long-term sustainability of nuclear energy."

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html

that were the info came from

You claimed that Thorium was more expensive to produce than Uranium, no where in the quoted text is that claim supported.<br /><br />-- Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:17 pm --<br /><br />
Skashion said:
uncle charlie wilson said:
An interesting video on Nuclear Fusion for those who may be interested;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk&feature=related[/youtube]
That's not about fusion. Thorium reactor research is worth funding though. I have an extremely long-term view of things in this regard. Fusion is the future. It offers scalability and fuel in limitless abundance. However, it could be another century before it is fully commercialised and powering your house. I'd definitely settle for fusion powering my house before I die (assuming I live to my life expectancy). It will likely be another until it is perfected to the point where it can be employed by spacecraft and the like. Mr. Fusion is sadly far beyond our reach and will take many more, if ever. Could Thorium be a decent stopgap, it's worth finding out.

My mistake re the video. I bookmarked it a while ago and thought it would be relevant to the discussion. Although from what I knew Thorium reactors worked upon the principle of fusion, I take it I was wrong?
 

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