General Election June 8th

[SWP's back]

its not an insult its the truth

Yeah ok.

So you stand by calling people that vote Tory "selfish fuckers" and you think that's civil.

 

[Len Rum]

It's pie in the sky without brexit I'm afraid. The increase in revenue from tax will be lower than they say and the cost of policies will be higher than they say. Borrowing will be much higher. Some may be fine with this but it would happen. Has any prediction on the ecomony, tax income or costing of infrastructure spending ever been accurate?

For those of us that have been around a while we know manifesto's can only be judged on general ideology and a direction in which a party wants the country to go. It hasn't been costed correctly because they never are.

We are no clearer on how they would tackle brexit but I think they are far more likely to give away more than the leavers would be willing to accept.

In effect nothing has changed for those who are unsure of which way to vote if they actually look behind the headlines.

Why would Labour necessarily negotiate a worse Brexit deal than the Tories?
Tories are more likely to walk away with no deal.
No way of knowing who would make a better economic deal. Tories might keep immigration down , fcuk off the ECJ but get a poor trade deal, Labour could be softer on immigration and ECJ but get a better trade deal which would be better for the economy.

 

[smudgedj]

Labour internal polling saying they could lose 120 seats.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/polit...said-to-fear-losing-120-seats-in-u-k-election

 

[steviemc]

Why would Labour necessarily negotiate a worse Brexit deal than the Tories?
Tories are more likely to walk away with no deal.
No way of knowing who would make a better economic deal. Tories might keep immigration down , fcuk off the ECJ but get a poor trade deal, Labour could be softer on immigration and ECJ but get a better trade deal which would be better for the economy.

Nobody will trust Labour to do this. Why are you not not able to recognise that the majority of the voting public feel that Labour have neither the balls or direction to take this country forward. It's staring everybody in the face. Labour managed to embarrass themselves so much in the last few weeks that the election has now become even more of a one-horse race than it already was.

They've hammered their own nails into their own coffins. If you think this result will be any different than the recent referendum, I'll gladly take any wager you offer. No ceiling or limits on my offer. You can blinker yourself into some kind of Labour utopia all you like - but it's as much of a pipe dream as us remaining in the EU. Yet another pipe dream that you'll probably never see for many many years.

 

[MellowJoe]

Probably need a thread on the failure of democracy at this rate. Epistocracy perhaps.. let the 'Vulcans' create a better system. Pretty obvious this system needs a tweak though.. this demagoguery populist stuff can't be the best way, especially as power is won by appealing to the centre. Even as a member of the mis/ill/non informed public I can see this style is inadequate. Apathetic masses can't create fairness.

 

[mcfc1632]

Why would Labour necessarily negotiate a worse Brexit deal than the Tories?
Tories are more likely to walk away with no deal.
No way of knowing who would make a better economic deal. Tories might keep immigration down , fcuk off the ECJ but get a poor trade deal, Labour could be softer on immigration and ECJ but get a better trade deal which would be better for the economy.

All about opinions Len - but I think it is very easy to know - in fact utterly simples

I will be happy to try and convince you - just accept the challenge that fumble has been dodging - I suspect that it might become quickly self-evident

Best to do it on the A50 thread

 

[mcfc1632]

Probably need a thread on the failure of democracy at this rate. Epistocracy perhaps.. let the 'Vulcans' create a better system. Pretty obvious this system needs a tweak though.. this demagoguery populist stuff can't be the best way, especially as power is won by appealing to the centre. Even as a member of the mis/ill/non informed public I can see this style is inadequate. Apathetic masses can't create fairness.

It is the system we have had for a long time

Whilst I might personally prefer an alternative I respect the fact that the electorate rejected changing it as recently as 2011.

Interestingly there was no hint of dissatisfaction amongst Labour supporters when Blair was winning large majorities and you would have to think, I would suggest, what is happening at this moment that makes these current circumstances so ‘special’?

After all, we had an election in 2010 that was so close that it resulted in a coalition government.

In 2015, the result was again close with one of the main parties being returned with a very slim majority

All of a sudden the polls are suggesting that the electorate is about to firmly reject the proposals of the Labour party and strongly endorse those of the Conservatives – maybe the questions should be about why that is

 

[MellowJoe]

I don't think anything is particularly 'special'. The system ('we have had for a long time') needs tweaking/changing.
I agree, that should be the question. Why? But if you have your answers to your first order questions wrong then it can't help but fall apart. (I mean the voting public there) Politics is really just ethics. My post was just lamenting the fact that we have all these years of study and thought.. ideas painstakingly argued, scrutinized and built upon, honed, and to throw it all away on this 'democracy' is a tragedy. Legislating on the mood of the ignorant electorate isn't a winning strategy. I'm only ranting here. It's face-palm stuff that's all.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yeah - I understand - I was not meaning anything 'pointed' towards you in my post - there are many countries that successfully operate a system of PR

As long as I have been old enough to vote I have been unable to make my vote count for anything – apart from the Referendum.

That is because for many years I lived in a constituency that has always been Labour – and likely always will be.

As events led to me moving location I have ended up in a constituency that has probably always been Conservative – and likely always will be.

So I feel pretty disenfranchised with the current system – but I recognise that it is the one we have

It seems very strange that people can be content with a system that means that the power to affect change essentially resides with the relatively small percentage of the population that live in marginals

 

[SWP's back]

Labour could be softer on immigration and ECJ but get a better trade deal which would be better for the economy.

So basically staying in the EU.