General Election June 8th

[SWP's back]

I'm sure this has already been asked but why are these companies not already in Ireland ?

Asked an answered several times in the past week.

You sound like a shitty partner in a relationship that keeps saying "if I'm that bad to live with then why are you still here?" And then you'll be in a for a shock when one day the other partner doesn't come home.

 

[Vic]

I don't recall mentioning/harping about Corbyn sympathies with IRA, most hard lefties have sympathy with IRA, it's a fact. Suggest you watch the Ken Loach film, The Wind that shakes the barley, self explanatory.

You mean it sympathised with self determination for the Irish then bemoaned the compromise of a divided country that led to a civil war between those who accepted that and those that didn't? Sorry I don't want to divert the thread back onto Irish history but I can't recall the film taking a particular "side" in its point of view.

Fuck off somewhere else with your strawman you toss pot.

That would be a dead disabled strawman you typical Tory.

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/maximus-admits-using-brutal-and-dangerous-suicide-questions/

 

[Vic]

Labour could not now be elected if people voted only out of self-interest. The Labour movement was based on economic justice (the value of labour) but on the reality that if we got universal suffrage then it was in most people's self interest to give us pensions, sick benefits, a health service out of tax and a national insurance system, and that peole would contribute according to their means.

To some extent the philanthropy of the rich that gave us public buildings (town halls, libraries, baths) and parks was replaced by fair taxation (why ask the rich for a donation when you can tax them instead so that the tightfisted contribute as well as the philanthropists).

Any vestige of that Tory paternalism went out of the window with Thatcher. But under successive governments (and in the EU) Britain has become richer - so rich that we can't afford to maintain those public buildings and parks. Were a rich benefactor to offer us his lands for a park we'd say no as we can't afford to look after it.

Austerity (ideologically motivated as Duncan Smith pointed out) has made the country a mess. Public squalor just to save a few quid on council tax (itself a Tory fraud after their poll tax debacle). Were this many people sleeping in shop doorways 7 years ago? Labour had virtually eradicated rough sleeping.

If self-interest is just about money in your pocket to spend on stuff you don't need, then with current average wages there aren't enough "poor" people to elect Labour (for the many not the few is a good slogan but it doesn't have the same resonance as Shelley meant after Peterloo).

For a Labour majority you have to have enough people who recognise the public good as in their interest and not just their own self-interest. And that includes the evidence that more equal societies are happier societies. Not of course that there is such a thing as society - the Tories may disavow Thatcher's statement but it's the same message.

 

[jay_mcfc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/droppin_well

I live in Derry/Londonderry Northern Ireland, you are calling the British Army and Unionists murderers. I find this very offensive. Look at this link to the Ballykelly bombing, terrible carnage perpetrated by the murderers you not only defend but advocate, shame on you and shame on any of your scumbag bigoted leftie pieces of grabastic ampibious dogshit, also that appeaser of murderers you want to lead our country!

You're from Derry, you shouldn't need educating on these things. Bloody Sunday was an atrocity, some might even say terrorism when the British Army following instructions from the British Govt indiscriminately killed catholics on a civil rights protest. That is deplorable and was the catalyst for the worst of the troubles over next 26 years and encouraged many new Republicans to join the movement. Most people just want to call the IRA terrorist scum without ever understanding the sectarian state they lived in nor admitting that the British were partly responsible. Killing innocent people can never be accepted nor condoned but that doesn't mean you can't sympathise with the position they were in.

The last part of your post just shows what an aggressive poster you are and I'm done with you quite frankly. Every post is the same, you're the most defensive, highly strung poster I've ever seen on this forum and that is not an easy achievement.

 

[jay_mcfc]

Fuck off somewhere else with your strawman you toss pot.

That makes a change, you calling someone else a strawman ;)

Maybe I made the point in a crass way, but it doesn't make it untrue.

I am classed as 70% disabled according to the old DLA guidelines and I've had a lot of experience talking to people with all types of disabilities. I live outside of the UK now so the change from DLA to PIP hasn't affected me personally because I'm not entitled to it but I've seen and heard a lot about it and it's absolutely gut wrenching. The Govt only see figures but what they have done to people in terms of stress, dignity and losing their self-respect cannot be calculated. Unfortunately it has led to thousands upon thousands of disabled people losing the money that was a life saver to them and has resulted in people killing themselves.

Unless you or a loved one has to claim for PIP you probably won't understand the process and how horrendous they make it for claimants, usually starting from a point of view that the claimant is lying and trying to cheat. In this world of austerity the general public just hear that welfare costs have to be reduced so we're cutting x amount from disability benefits but they don't have the understanding of the effect that has on so many people.

If anyone hasn't got a full understand of the affect this has had on people then type it in to google and just read forums and websites.

 

[Vic]

Just start here

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...590-suicides-to-push-to-get-disabled-working/

 

[urban genie]

Her silence on trumps latest shite speaks volumes, any credible global leader will denounce the arse for what he has done.

Weakest prime minister we have had, she's feckin useless.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Labour could not now be elected if people voted only out of self-interest. The Labour movement was based on economic justice (the value of labour) but on the reality that if we got universal suffrage then it was in most people's self interest to give us pensions, sick benefits, a health service out of tax and a national insurance system, and that peole would contribute according to their means.

To some extent the philanthropy of the rich that gave us public buildings (town halls, libraries, baths) and parks was replaced by fair taxation (why ask the rich for a donation when you can tax them instead so that the tightfisted contribute as well as the philanthropists).

Any vestige of that Tory paternalism went out of the window with Thatcher. But under successive governments (and in the EU) Britain has become richer - so rich that we can't afford to maintain those public buildings and parks. Were a rich benefactor to offer us his lands for a park we'd say no as we can't afford to look after it.

Austerity (ideologically motivated as Duncan Smith pointed out) has made the country a mess. Public squalor just to save a few quid on council tax (itself a Tory fraud after their poll tax debacle). Were this many people sleeping in shop doorways 7 years ago? Labour had virtually eradicated rough sleeping.

If self-interest is just about money in your pocket to spend on stuff you don't need, then with current average wages there aren't enough "poor" people to elect Labour (for the many not the few is a good slogan but it doesn't have the same resonance as Shelley meant after Peterloo).

For a Labour majority you have to have enough people who recognise the public good as in their interest and not just their own self-interest. And that includes the evidence that more equal societies are happier societies. Not of course that there is such a thing as society - the Tories may disavow Thatcher's statement but it's the same message.

And there's enough people earning over 80k to get the Tories in power is there?

If you take into account those reliant on benefits, the 6 million public servents who are part of Labours client state and vote Labour in droves, there's not far off enough people to vote Labour into power on those two things alone, particularly when you take into account the uneven seat distribution that means the Tories need a far higher number of voters to achieve the same outcome as Labour. Are you surprised that wage increases significantly outstripped the private sector during Labours 13 years in govt. Of course, that's why Labour want to re nationalise Trains, energy etc at great cost to the taxpayer.

As for rough sleepers in case you had forgotten housing is the responsibility of local councils and I have noticed a rise in recent years in the Labour run Manchester council. I've not noticed anything like the rough sleepers in my own Tory run council Labours politically motivated policies implemented at the expense of people's lives? No of course not...

 

[urban genie]

Labour want to re nationalise Trains, energy etc at great cost to the taxpayer.

As for rough sleepers in case you had forgotten housing is the responsibility of local councils and I have noticed a rise in recent years in the Labour run Manchester council. I've not noticed anything like the rough sleepers in my own Tory run council Labours politically motivated policies implemented at the expense of people's lives? No of course not...

on the renationalisation at great cost to tge tax payers, we already pay large suma of our tax to all the industries you memtiomwd in go ernment subsidies, while profits from them go elsewhere, for me better tgose profits go to the treasury.

Your second point which tory council is that so I can look to move there as it sounds utopian, nearly everywhere has homeless or rough sleepers, it is a national problem.
Also I would expect people on hard times will gravitate toward larger aeas of populace where there is more chance to find work, shelter etc, so homelessness will be more apparent

 

[Ancient Citizen]

AC is a busted flush. One of the most miserablist fuckers on here, myself included. Blinded by hate.

Really?
I have never said that I hate the Labour party, I used to vote for them, yet all I see on here is 'Tory cunts'
'May is an evil fucking witch' and other vitriolic, vicious pejoratives, from people with the same political
views as yourself. All this hatred appears to come from one side, Corbyn is mocked as an ineffectual idealistic
buffoon, with the added disquiet attached to someone who supported a truly hateful organisation, but the bile is
generally spewed by his supporters.
As for miserablist, I'm never affected by depression or dark musings, it seems the only ones effing and blinding
and pulling their collective barnets out are your fellow lefties,

 

[cibaman]

If they showed the roots to that tree they'd be withering away

 

[Chippy_boy]

your diatribe about it having holes, any chance we can see the costed policies of the tory party?

I've said on here already that I am disgusted with Theresa May's campaign, and them being so arrogant as to not bother trying to explain how their (albeit very limited in comparison to yours) spending plans will be funded, is shameful. But that's to deflect from what I was discussing.

I was talking about the Labour imaginary money tree and it's bug-eaten imaginary apples. It is Labour who are planning to splash our cash; it is Labour who have a 100 year history of financial mismanagement. Labour's number do not add up and cannot be trusted, AS USUAL.

Anyone who thinks we can raise £19bn extra in corporation tax just like that, is a cuckoo in that daft tree. 5% extra tax yielding £6.4bn. Absolute poppycock. Yes, many people on PAYE and perhaps salaries under £200k or so will have to pay it, so it will probably raise about £3bn. But the other £3bn will never materialise because someone on £100m a year has 27 homes in 19 different countries and only spends a few week a year here anyway, so they will simply decamp somewhere else, as has been demonstrated to be the case in the past.

Labour's tax and spend proposals are ludicrous Ken.

I get it though. They are necessarily ludicrous, because Jerry is so hell bent on spending more on everything come what may, he has to try to pretend he can get the money from somewhere. I imagine he knows full went it all doesn't add up.

 

[The perfect fumble]

David Davis on migration target

Earlier on Thursday, policing minister Brandon Lewis said that cutting net migration to the tens of thousands – included in the manifesto – should happen “over the course of the next parliament”. That’s 2022, presuming we get a five-year parliament next time round.

The prime minister, quizzed about Lewis’ comment, agreed:

That’s what we’re working for.

But David Davis David, on Question Time, seemed to row back from the 2022 goal:

That wasn’t actually in the manifesto, it was ‘we will bring it down’, we didn’t say, we didn’t put a date.

We would like to do it in the parliament, but I think, you know, it will be dictated by a number of things.

The economy, the speed with which we can get our own people trained up to take the jobs, the changes in the welfare to encourage people to work.

A whole series of things which were designed to ensure this is an economically successful policy.

[It’s] the aim, yes, but we can’t promise within five years, that’s the point.
.............................

May sets out her 12-point Brexit Plan

The PM sets out her 12-point for a brighter Brexit, which stretched the definition of plan with "points" including:

• 1. Provide certainty and clarity.
  
• 3. Strengthen the union.
  
• 5. Control immigration.
  
• 12. Deliver a smooth orderly exit from the EU.

While this sets the Tories apart from parties pledging uncertainty, obfuscation and an unruly stampede to the emergency brexits, it does still leave a few questions unanswered. Such as: yes, but what are you actually going to do?
.........................................

They're taking their supporters for granted, they think they're fools and will swallow anything..

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Absolutely spot on Chippy. There are people in the country who actually understand the reason the Tories make the tough decisions they do.

Yes there are. They're called "the rich", who benefit from low taxes, have private medical insurance and send their kids to private school. They also make huge donations to the Tories and expect a payback when previously public services get privatised.

 

[Peggy's a blue]

You mean it sympathised with self determination for the Irish then bemoaned the compromise of a divided country that led to a civil war between those who accepted that and those that didn't? Sorry I don't want to divert the thread back onto Irish history but I can't recall the film taking a particular "side" in its point of view.





That would be a dead disabled strawman you typical Tory.

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/maximus-admits-using-brutal-and-dangerous-suicide-questions/

It was the way the pro British element were portrayed as foul mouthed brutal/violent whereas the " freedom fighters" were hard pressed saintly people fighting oppression the best way they could, Kens known for his anti British stance on this and made no apologies for the way he directed the film after much critism from the press.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Really?
I have never said that I hate the Labour party, I used to vote for them, yet all I see on here is 'Tory cunts'
'May is an evil fucking witch' and other vitriolic, vicious pejoratives, from people with the same political
views as yourself. All this hatred appears to come from one side, Corbyn is mocked as an ineffectual idealistic
buffoon, with the added disquiet attached to someone who supported a truly hateful organisation, but the bile is
generally spewed by his supporters.
As for miserablist, I'm never affected by depression or dark musings, it seems the only ones effing and blinding
and pulling their collective barnets out are your fellow lefties,

As a

David Davis on migration target

Earlier on Thursday, policing minister Brandon Lewis said that cutting net migration to the tens of thousands – included in the manifesto – should happen “over the course of the next parliament”. That’s 2022, presuming we get a five-year parliament next time round.

The prime minister, quizzed about Lewis’ comment, agreed:

That’s what we’re working for.

But David Davis David, on Question Time, seemed to row back from the 2022 goal:

That wasn’t actually in the manifesto, it was ‘we will bring it down’, we didn’t say, we didn’t put a date.

We would like to do it in the parliament, but I think, you know, it will be dictated by a number of things.

The economy, the speed with which we can get our own people trained up to take the jobs, the changes in the welfare to encourage people to work.

A whole series of things which were designed to ensure this is an economically successful policy.

[It’s] the aim, yes, but we can’t promise within five years, that’s the point.
.............................

May sets out her 12-point Brexit Plan

The PM sets out her 12-point for a brighter Brexit, which stretched the definition of plan with "points" including:

• 1. Provide certainty and clarity.
  
• 3. Strengthen the union.
  
• 5. Control immigration.
  
• 12. Deliver a smooth orderly exit from the EU.

While this sets the Tories apart from parties pledging uncertainty, obfuscation and an unruly stampede to the emergency brexits, it does still leave a few questions unanswered. Such as: yes, but what are you actually going to do?
.........................................

They're taking their supporters for granted, they think they're fools and will swallow anything..

It really feels like the Tories are new to their jobs - they're all over the place.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yes there are. They're called "the rich", who benefit from low taxes, have private medical insurance and send their kids to private school. They also make huge donations to the Tories and expect a payback when previously public services get privatised.

I am not rich PB. In fact I've been unemployed for 12 months. But I know what a sure fire recipe for economic failure looks like, and it looks like this

 

[The perfect fumble]

No TV debate, no Woman's Hour, no local radio, what a shit shower that woman is.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I am not rich PB. In fact I've been unemployed for 12 months. But I know what a sure fire recipe for economic failure looks like, and it looks like this

I've had the dubious pleasure of reading most of your posts and I can assure you....You don't

Good luck with getting a job, I mean it, I've been there and it's not fun.

 

[SWP's back]

That would be a dead disabled strawman you typical Tory.

No it was a strawman and not remotely related to anything I had said. A bit like your post just now Fetters.