General Election June 8th

[Manc Born & Bred]

It wasnt a great analogy in the first place to be honest as you're comparing consumer debt with government debt. I just don't think it's all that helpful throwing phrases like "simple economics" around when in fact it's a massively complex subject. There are respected economists on both sides of the argument. Many people who know far more on the subject than anyone on here would argue that austerity can squeeze the last signs of life out of an already flat-lining economy while more borrowing can stimulate it. Badly managed austerity can crash an economy just as easily as unchecked borrowing. Whatever the course of action (and there are decent arguments on both sides of the debate) it has to be done carefully.

I understand what you are saying but I wanted to simplify it in a way people might understand. You can't spend what you don't gave. The economy is currently growing albeit slowly but it doesn't help when most politicians talk about spending billions with money the country just doesn't gave. On one hand they talk about a spiralling deficit then on the other they want to increase it. Balmy

 

[Len Rum]

Many people who know far more on the subject than anyone on here would argue that austerity can squeeze the last signs of life out of a flat lining economy. Badly managed austerity can crash an economy just as easily as unchecked borrowing. Whatever the course of action (and there are decent arguments on both sides of the debate) it has to be done carefully.

Good point. That's exactly what Boy George did in 2012 i.e. crashed the economy by badly managed austerity and we are still suffering from it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Debt has of course risen whilst we have a deficit. To say it has "spiralled" is misleading, that impiies its been rising uncontrollably or at an increasing rate, neither of which is true. The rate of rise has been coming down and down and down.

And yet you would have it spiral by spending even more money we don't have. That is the reality.

depends how you want to view it. from 2010 to 2015 Gideon's control of the economy saw the debt to GDP ration rise from @60% to @85% . At that point Gideon projected the structural deficit would have been eliminated by 2019/20 - pushed back from the original 2015/16 - that target has now been abandoned and the national debt increases by on average £70bn p.a. Its still rising just not as fast as it was - is that a success?

No I wouldn't spend more money - I would redirect what we have to spend in other directions - no Trident, no HS2 and no large tax cuts for the wealthy are a good place to start. The reality is Tory supporters simply assume that a Labour Government would spend what they are PLUS more that the Mail and the Telegraph tell them they would. Redistribution is a cornerstone of what Labour want to do but the propaganda is swallowed whole by some.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It wasnt a great analogy in the first place to be honest as you're comparing consumer debt with government debt. I just don't think it's all that helpful throwing phrases like "simple economics" around when in fact it's a massively complex subject. There are respected economists on both sides of the argument. Many people who know far more on the subject than anyone on here would argue that austerity can squeeze the last signs of life out of an already flat-lining economy while more borrowing can stimulate it. Badly managed austerity can crash an economy just as easily as unchecked borrowing. Whatever the course of action (and there are decent arguments on both sides of the debate) it has to be done carefully.

for a seminar on the damaging effects of a badly managed austerity programme you may wish to speak to Gideon - he fucking nailed it mate

 

[Chippy_boy]

That's definitely simple, but that isn't how economics really works. By your logic, we shouldn't have mortgages at all, be that for a £3m house in Hale or a £70k house in Heywood.

I think there's a question of degree though. Everyone would surely agree that mortgages at say 10x salary would be a pretty stupid idea.

There's nothing wrong with government debt at a reasonable level, and increasing it in order to boost infrastructure investment and to kick-start the economy is not in itself stupid either, which is one of the reasons I would assume for HS2 spending at a time when on the face of it we can not really afford it.

But there comes a point - like with the 10x mortgage - when the debt level is perilously high and your room for manoeuvre is therefore severely limited. I don't think Corbyn understands this, and if he does, he certainly doesn't seem to care about it at all. His head is so completely focused on what he sees as righting the wrongs in society by spending more money on everything, his eye is totally off the ball with regards to the negative impact an increased tax burden would have on the economy, and the dangers of our debt becoming unsustainable. It's not even on his radar. That's the worrying thing.

He's behaving like a depressed dieter who's been trying to lose weight and eating fruit and salad for weeks, and who's just found the biscuit tin and just thinks fuck it, I am going binge on sweets, crisps and biscuits and sod the consequences.

 

[Chippy_boy]

for a seminar on the damaging effects of a badly managed austerity programme you may wish to speak to Gideon - he fucking nailed it mate

Yeah, because the country has done terribly for the past 6 years hasn't it. What with the strong growth (until Brexit), record employment levels, low inflation etc, highest NHS spending ever, highest pensions ever. And all managed when what he took over was IF YOU REMEMBER a total cluster-fuck of an economy with SPIRALLING, yes spiralling debt from the last Labour government.

Specialist in failure that Gideon bloke eh?

Your irrational hatred completely obscures any objectivity.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No I wouldn't spend more money - I would redirect what we have to spend in other directions - no Trident, no HS2 and no large tax cuts for the wealthy are a good place to start. The reality is Tory supporters simply assume that a Labour Government would spend what they are PLUS more that the Mail and the Telegraph tell them they would. Redistribution is a cornerstone of what Labour want to do but the propaganda is swallowed whole by some.

Have a word with Jeremy then would you, because he's planning on spending £350bn more. Of course debt went up since when he took over it was rising at the rate of £170b per year. DId you expect the deficit he inherited to magically stop overnight? Of course you didn't.

And by the way, what are these "large tax cuts for the wealthy" you mention? I must have missed them.

 

[RandomJ]

This Corbyn chap cannot be our PM on Friday morning if he is not prepared to put the interests of protecting the citizens of the UK over his pacifist ideals. It would be great if every citizen of the world shared the same values as Corbyn but this is the real world we all live in. We need a leader who understands there are evil people out to do us harm and we need a strong leader to protect us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-34836582/jeremy-corbyn-opposes-shoot-to-kill-policy

Yeah her government is doing a great job of protecting it's citizens isn't it... And who needs those 20,000 police they cut, not like they'd ever come in handy is it? Don't worry though cos Rudd has refused to rule out further cuts to the police so we'll all be feeling even more safe soon.

 

[adrianr]

And right on cue from the cobra meeting, Theresa May talking about 'shutting down safe spaces online'. I keep banging this drum but it is a slippery fucking slope. You cannot and should not try and win this fight by enacting a Stasi regime online. Today it's terrorists, tomorrow it's kodi boxes, and the day after it's covering up the next MP's expenses scandal, or similar.

 

[geoff clipp]

I understand what you are saying but I wanted to simplify it in a way people might understand. You can't spend what you don't gave. The economy is currently growing albeit slowly but it doesn't help when most politicians talk about spending billions with money the country just doesn't gave. On one hand they talk about a spiralling deficit then on the other they want to increase it. Balmy

I get that, but when you simplify this particular topic in a way people might understand it tends to only to debunk the arguments for borrowing rather than explain the problems with austerity. People need to understand both really. These over simplified arguments play into the hands of the Tories and I think it's important to understand both sides of the story so people can make a reasoned decision on the subject.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yeah, because the country has done terribly for the past 6 years hasn't it. What with the strong growth (until Brexit), record employment levels, low inflation etc, highest NHS spending ever, highest pensions ever. And all managed when what he took over was IF YOU REMEMBER a total cluster-fuck of an economy with SPIRALLING, yes spiralling debt from the last Labour government.

Specialist in failure that Gideon bloke eh?

Your irrational hatred completely obscures any objectivity.

you looking in a mirror mate?

Success - food banks, wage stagnation, housing market out of control ............... oh yes all Labours fault I forgot. They took over a bad position and made it worse - they are now struggling to maintain its worse position - Osbourne's history degree hardly marked him out as the ideal economist - he was Dave's mate though so hey ho.

Just look at some of the things you highlight as successes - record levels of employment yet wage stagnation - why? That flies in the face of economic reason - low availability of labour should drive up the value of that labour. Maybe employers take the govt's lead with wage "restraint" in public services. Maybe the growth is illusory and most businesses are not benefiting from the runaway economic success or maybe education is failing our economy - too much emphasis and spend on grammars and "free" schools and not enough spent on actual learning
Low inflation - even so wages have failed to keep pace and most are no better or worse off in real terms than they were in 2009
Highest spending on the NHS - yes - but clearly not enough and clearly overseen by an incompetent minister who has wasted time and effort destroying goodwill by going to was with his staff.

 

[bluethrunthru]

And right on cue from the cobra meeting, Theresa May talking about 'shutting down safe spaces online'. I keep banging this drum but it is a slippery fucking slope. You cannot and should not try and win this fight by enacting a Stasi regime online. Today it's terrorists, tomorrow it's kodi boxes, and the day after it's covering up the next MP's expenses scandal, or similar.

naked land grab by politicians to restrict our freedoms - for our own good of course.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

And right on cue from the cobra meeting, Theresa May talking about 'shutting down safe spaces online'. I keep banging this drum but it is a slippery fucking slope. You cannot and should not try and win this fight by enacting a Stasi regime online. Today it's terrorists, tomorrow it's kodi boxes, and the day after it's covering up the next MP's expenses scandal, or similar.

But the majority of people will agree with her. The idea that your kodi box is more important than defending the nation from this threat from within is ludicrous.
She's just won the election.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yeah her government is doing a great job of protecting it's citizens isn't it... And who needs those 20,000 police they cut, not like they'd ever come in handy is it? Don't worry though cos Rudd has refused to rule out further cuts to the police so we'll all be feeling even more safe soon.

Are you another spender of anyone else's money other than your own? Or are you a keen £80k+ earner eager to hand over more money?

 

[adrianr]

But the majority of people will agree with her. The idea that your kodi box is more important than defending the nation from this threat from within is ludicrous.
She's just won the election.

You're missing my point if you think it's about kodi boxes.

 

[Damocles]

But the majority of people will agree with her. The idea that your kodi box is more important than defending the nation from this threat from within is ludicrous.
She's just won the election.

The idea that the Government have the ability to shut down terrorist communication online is one only held by old people who can't set the time on the video and do not understand that what she's suggesting is literally impossible.

She's just lost the vote of anybody who understands technology.

 

[geoff clipp]

This Corbyn chap cannot be our PM on Friday morning if he is not prepared to put the interests of protecting the citizens of the UK over his pacifist ideals. It would be great if every citizen of the world shared the same values as Corbyn but this is the real world we all live in. We need a leader who understands there are evil people out to do us harm and we need a strong leader to protect us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-34836582/jeremy-corbyn-opposes-shoot-to-kill-policy

He's been quite clear that he would not oppose shoot to kill in order to prevent further loss of life so let's just knock this on the head now. Where people can be safely apprehended and brought to trial that is the preferred course of action but he does understand and accept shoot to kill is sometimes necessary.

 

[Chippy_boy]

But the majority of people will agree with her. The idea that your kodi box is more important than defending the nation from this threat from within is ludicrous.
She's just won the election.

I keep saying on here, but I'll say it again because I think it's important: In my view we need to tighten the law to make illegal a wider scope of activity, such that the things that these 23,000 would-be terrorists are doing to get themselves on the list of 23,000, are in themselves illegal. This would help stop it, and at least stop the numbers from increasing. And we would arrest and prosecute those who continued to read information on bomb-making; how to launch terrorist attacks and what have you. Just visiting sites containing this sort of information should in itself be illegal in my view, just as visiting a child porn site is illegal.

We could prosecute these people, imprison them and or deport them. 23,000 possible nutters on the loose is far too many.

 

[Chippy_boy]

He's been quite clear that he would not oppose shoot to kill in order to prevent further loss of life so let's just knock this on the head now. Where people can be safely apprehended and brought to trial that is the preferred course of action but he does understand and accept shoot to kill is sometimes necessary.

Not preferred by everyone, probably including me. I'm more inclined to be persuaded to bring back torture.

 

[SWP's back]

And right on cue from the cobra meeting, Theresa May talking about 'shutting down safe spaces online'. I keep banging this drum but it is a slippery fucking slope. You cannot and should not try and win this fight by enacting a Stasi regime online. Today it's terrorists, tomorrow it's kodi boxes, and the day after it's covering up the next MP's expenses scandal, or similar.

Thing is that people keep saying "the government must do more".