George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

[Bigga]

Huawei was about to install /run the world's 5g communication network so it,was very much a global issue. Racist policemen murdering black people in America is an American issue. The desperation to import it here and look for equivalence within our own society to justify whipping up a shit storm goes beyond empathy and solidarity and has become a bit sinister. We have protested American issues before - notably Vietnam in the 60's, but the difference now is that the actions of policemen in America have been transposed to our own police force.

exactly,i'm sick of people tarring our policemen with the same brush as american cops, when was the last time anybody was shot in the back 7 times at point blank range by a copper over here, half of em don't even know what they're protesting for!

Let's use another tack to understand the broader issue, rather than conflate the discussion with different points.

In this country, not in the US, why do you think representation in the police force for BAME entrants are extremely low...?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Let's use another tack to understand the broader issue, rather than conflate the discussion with different points.

In this country, not in the US, why do you think representation in the police force for BAME entrants are extremely low...?

Because of the false narrative that the police are institutionally racist, bolstered by attempts to conflate the actions of a policeman thousands of miles away with our own police force?
How many black faces do you see in classical music? are there the correct proportion at the etihad on a match day when compared to the percentage in a team? License holders and publicans in Mcr? School headmasters? - racism everywhere it seems.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I totally agree with this.

But the Gulf wars, Vietnam and Falklands are all examples of deep lies, we the people and our soldiers, are told.

The World Wars were not and thus, when one of those Vets speak to say about being "free" I will gladly listen, knowing the untold weight of loss they endured and life they gave up for me to fuck around on the net and have an unbridled opinion.

Both World Wars were lies.

Over 50% of the British soldiers in the trenches didn't have the vote, they didn't meet the criteria, all the Germans in the opposite trenches could vote. It was a war we should never have fought, Germany was an imperial competitor and needed to be reigned in, why? because our masters said so.

The Second World War was an even greater lie....

The three great allies, Britain, Russia and the USA were more than happy to deal with fascism

Russia signed a non aggression pact with Hitler and together they carved up Poland.

The USA happily stayed neutral, entering the war against Germany only when Germany declared war on her after Pearl Harbour.

And Britain? We wanted peace for our time, happy for the most part to ignore the.... "quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing". We were forced to act only when we realised Hitler was a threat to us.

 

[Bigga]

Because of the false narrative that the police are institutionally racist, bolstered by attempts to conflate the actions of a policeman thousands of miles away with our own police force?

I asked a question and I won't be sidetracked by whataboutery, hence the editing of your post to reflect the ACTUAL conversation.

These are accounts from people that have been in or have been in the UK police force.

If you have the honesty, inclination and interest, read on. If you don't, well you've wasted both our time.

Example One

Example Two

Example Three

Example Four

Example Five

This is just a handful.

Let it be said, like for everyone else that has an experience to draw upon, this does not represent EVERYONE Black within the British police force, but it shows that people do not submit "false narrative" for the fuck of it.

 

[Bigga]

Both World Wars were lies.

Over 50% of the British soldiers in the trenches didn't have the vote, they didn't meet the criteria, all the Germans in the opposite trenches could vote. It was a war we should never have fought, Germany was an imperial competitor and needed to be reigned in, why? because our masters said so.

The Second World War was an even greater lie....

The three great allies, Britain, Russia and the USA were more than happy to deal with fascism

Russia signed a non aggression pact with Hitler and together they carved up Poland.

The USA happily stayed neutral, entering the war against Germany only when Germany declared war on her after Pearl Harbour.

And Britain? We wanted peace for our time, happy for the most part to ignore the.... "quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing". We were forced to act only when we realised Hitler was a threat to us.

See that, right there, bolded and underlined...?

When you had kids and fathers lying about their age, so they could fight to keep their loved ones safe and free as possible, that's pretty much all I care about.

I would do EXACTLY the same to protect my family regardless of shitty Gov secrecy and reasons for being in a World War.

That's why Vets have my respect.

 

[The perfect fumble]

See that, right there, bolded and underlined...?

When you had kids and fathers lying about their age, so they could fight to keep their loved ones safe and free as possible, that's pretty much all I care about.

I would do EXACTLY the same to protect my family regardless of shitty Gov secrecy and reasons for being in a World War.

That's why Vets have my respect.

Yes, Hitler was a territorial threat to us, though Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess might disagree.

But you've shifted your position from your original post.

The second world war needed to be won, Hitler needed to be defeated, that is why it is considered the "good" war, but it was not fought to defeat fascism and when it was over the Nazis might have gone, but fascism was not defeated. Franco still ruled in Spain and the west was happy to support fascist all over the shop during the cold war, as a "necessary" bulwark against Communism.

 

[Bigga]

Yes, Hitler was a territorial threat to us, though Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess might disagree.

But you've shifted your position from your original post.

The second world war needed to be won, Hitler needed to be defeated, that is why it is considered the "good" war, but it was not fought to defeat fascism and when it was over the Nazis might have gone, but fascism was not defeated. Franco still ruled in Spain and the west was happy to support fascist all over the shop during the cold war, as a "necessary" bulwark against Communism.

I have not "shifted my position" at all.

My overall statement was about soldiers/ Vets saying their fight for 'your freedom' was a personal one, regardless of what the Gov intentions were.

You called this "a lie", not me.

I will repeat soldiers are not dumb.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

EX1 - bad apples and all that. Not dismissing it, but there always will be one or two in a big organisation.
EX2 - Two former TOP BLACK OFFICERS - careers blighted, really?
EX3 - One mixed-race officer, whose father is Jamaican and who would prefer not to be named, tells me that his childhood on a rough and ethnically diverse south London council estate was largely themed by a distinction between law enforcement and everyone else. “There was them, and then there was us,” he says. If you already percieve 'the babylon' as the enemy it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I think we need to resolve the issue of the 'ethnically diverse council estate' being 'rough' and
EX4 - fair enough, no answer to that.
EX5 - I nearly didn't bother as the first para in a paper apparently about racism in the UK force began with the sentence 'who killed George Floyd'. Interestingly the stats on BAME officers reflect the general population circa 1999, but not now as it has doubled from 7-14%. It may just be 'lag' or there may be an issue - particularly with senior positions. Not sure what is to be done - we've seen some of the issues with positive action / positive discrimination with single sex shortlists to address sexism. I'm not sure they would be any less fraught with difficulty if used to address racism.
For what it's worth I'm a member of an organisation that was male only until 1990. I can hand on heart say it is now not remotely sexist, and although 'shop floor' membership is pretty much 50/50, the senior positions are still male dominated. Some of this is just a matter of time / numbers. I wonder what percentage of any police officers make it to the most senior ranks? - if you then take 7% of that number it may be somewhere between 0-1 which would explain there being no BAME representation at the top. The two in your second example seemed to do ok though?

In short there are racists in an organisation as big as the police, just as I'm sure there are thieves, murderers, paedos and rapists. I still feel the police are being scapegoated though and the whole George Floyd thing and the rest of the US goings on are a distraction. Young black men in SE London particularly are stopped disproportionately, and are probably committing a disproportionate amount of crime. No sooner had stop and search been reduced than the met faced calls to 'do something' about young black men carrying knives (from the black community). What we need to solve is the issue of black men in particular being denied opportunity and sucked into crime. That would involve real change and a redressing of fundamental fairness in the country -I get frustrated with the BLM crusade against the police, statues, and to an extent stop and search because I think these are all symptoms or distractions rather than the disease. The people who wish to preserve the status quo will be delighted if a few old statues, rule Brittannia, and the police take the rap for this so they don't have to make any actual improvements in the UK or to the lives of black people within it.

 

[lazerblue]

Let's use another tack to understand the broader issue, rather than conflate the discussion with different points.

In this country, not in the US, why do you think representation in the police force for BAME entrants are extremely low...?

is it? i don't know, enlighten me

 

[The perfect fumble]

I have not "shifted my position" at all.

My overall statement was about soldiers/ Vets saying their fight for 'your freedom' was a personal one, regardless of what the Gov intentions were.

You called this "a lie", not me.

I will repeat soldiers are not dumb.

And repetition is not refutation.