Grenfell Tower block disaster

[Len Rum]

Here's the details of the PE cladding material used and how it was testes. It's a good read.
https://www.impact-solutions.co.uk/pe-cladding-and-fire-ratings-what-does-it-all-mean/

I just fail to see how PE cladding passed BS476 parts 6 & 7 to be class 0 compliant without being at least fire retardant.
I guess this will be one of the major enquiry issues.

As you have said that link states the cladding does meet the necessary Class 0 requirements under BS476 and so is compliant with regulations.
Now I'm confused by what Hammond said

 

[SilverFox2]

As you have said that link states the cladding does meet the necessary Class 0 requirements under BS476 and so is compliant with regulations.
Now I'm confused by what Hammond said

Is the height restriction on its use a limiting factor.?

 

[BlueAnorak]

As you have said that link states the cladding does meet the necessary Class 0 requirements under BS476 and so is compliant with regulations.
Now I'm confused by what Hammond said

That's the rub isn't it. It says it is compliant - but if its not at least fire retardant, and from the speed the fire took hold, it clearly isn't, I can't see how it can be compliant!

 

[SilverFox2]

That's the rub isn't it. It says it is compliant - but if its not at least fire retardant, and from the speed the fire took hold, it clearly isn't, I can't see how it can be compliant!

Maybe it is compliant as long as the 10 metres height restriction is observed (see post 767).
No expert but perhaps its need to have FR kicks in when bigger pull from chimney effect at above 10 metre heights.

 

[TCIB]

Somebody somewhere made the choice to use the material that could go up. That person and maybe others need to go to jail for a long time. I am sure they thought they were just saving a few quid BUT their poor judgement has cost lives.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Maybe it is compliant as long as the 10 metres height restriction is observed (see post 767).
No expert but perhaps its need to have FR kicks in when bigger pull from chimney effect at above 10 metre heights.

10 metres is no more than 4 floors when the wind gets involved above that I bet it's like paper

 

[BlueAnorak]

Maybe it is compliant as long as the 10 metres height restriction is observed (see post 767).
No expert but perhaps its need to have FR kicks in when bigger pull from chimney effect at above 10 metre heights.

Excellent point. We shall she during the inquiry.

 

[Len Rum]

Is the height restriction on its use a limiting factor.?

I'm no expert mate but it doesn't appear to be from the documents Blue Anorak posted.
It could be in the small print somewhere.
They're hellish complicated documents and no doubt lawyers will be all over them like a rash now.
I suppose the question to spreadsheet Phil is - show us the regulation which says these panels are banned for buildings above a certain height.

 

[worsleyweb]

£5.5K initial help is not a lot! Would give them all at least 25k each to tide them over.

 

[East Level 2]

Does anybody know how bidding for this sort of council/public works contract is carried out?
Would the cladding material be specified by the building owners? Would the minimum fire-retardant factor be specified? Or would the material be specified by the contractors with the intention it would be approved or questioned by the owners?
If it's the third option; specified by contractors, would other bidders have specified the material to be used? It may be that competing bids were higher if a higher specification cladding was used. It may also be that other contractors also bid using the lower specification. It won't help the victims but I think we should know whether all contractors are willing to use a lower specification material.
And if the flammable stuff meets the requirements then where do we go from here?

 

[SilverFox2]

Somebody somewhere made the choice to use the material that could go up. That person and maybe others need to go to jail for a long time. I am sure they thought they were just saving a few quid BUT their poor judgement has cost lives.

Jail is an option for major H and S irregularities and no doubt there was a need to have risk assessments and method statements so there should have been many construction as well as materials used checks with full traceability.

 

[worsleyweb]

Does anybody know how bidding for this sort of council/public works contract is carried out?
Would the cladding material be specified by the building owners? Would the minimum fire-retardant factor be specified? Or would the material be specified by the contractors with the intention it would be approved or questioned by the owners?
If it's the third option; specified by contractors, would other bidders have specified the material to be used? It may be that competing bids were higher if a higher specification cladding was used. It may also be that other contractors also bid using the lower specification. It won't help the victims but I think we should know whether all contractors are willing to use a lower specification material.
And if the flammable stuff meets the requirements then where do we go from here?

Could be a variety of options mate. An architect would normally specify the material to be used via a performance specification. A client would issue a brief of what they want - the architect would develop that brief - issue some employers requirements and then the contractor may come back with a series of contractors proposals. It is a complex area.

 

[kaz7]

Every family whose home was destroyed in the Grenfell Tower fire will receive a down-payment of at least £5,500 on Monday.

The Prime Minister has confirmed that each affected household is going to receive £500 in cash, as well as £5,000 delivered through the Department of Work and Pensions.

Downing Street says affected families can access the cash payment immediately from the council "as and when" they need it.

Number 10 has stressed that households who do not have a bank account will be given support to ensure they can access the rest of the down-payment.

The down-payment is part of a £5m support fund established by the Government in the wake of Wednesday's fire.

It is in addition to a guarantee of funding for temporary accommodation for the families unable to return to their homes, and funding for legal representation to ensure residents' voices are heard during a planned public inquiry.

 

[Vic]

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspec...rnal-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/


Have a read of this. Think it's a few years old but it's scary reading

It's only a few months old. Winter 2016.

It is the most comprehensive thing I've seen and I'm surprised the firm hasn't been more prominent as real experts in the last few days.

If I get the gist right, the panels used probably met UK buildings regs (so a question mark over Hammond's comments this morning).

"Class 0 limits the rates of surface spread of flame and of fire propagation, but can be achieved by materials which are combustible in a fully developed fire."

But there should be a non-combustible stop at each floor (to stop the funnel / chimney effect in cavities) so there may be issues there on how it was done.

The Parliamentary report from 2000 is horrible to read - but does both mean that hindsight is wonderful and that the risks were known.

"The committee concluded:

18. The evidence we have received during this inquiry does not suggest that the majority of the external cladding systems currently in use in the UK poses a serious threat to life or property in the event of fire. …

19. Notwithstanding what we have said in paragraph 18 above, we do not believe that it should take a serious fire in which many people are killed before all reasonable steps are taken towards minimising the risks."

As such a fire could be started maliciously from the outside of buildings, locking up bins and clearing exterior rubbish has to be immediate priority.

And the overall conclusion seems to be that many such buildings will need physical alterations that would need scaffolding so costly that they mIght as well install new cladding. And the bottom line is that unaltered buildings may be uninsurable.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Every family whose home was destroyed in the Grenfell Tower fire will receive a down-payment of at least £5,500 on Monday.

The Prime Minister has confirmed that each affected household is going to receive £500 in cash, as well as £5,000 delivered through the Department of Work and Pensions.

Downing Street says affected families can access the cash payment immediately from the council "as and when" they need it.

Number 10 has stressed that households who do not have a bank account will be given support to ensure they can access the rest of the down-payment.

The down-payment is part of a £5m support fund established by the Government in the wake of Wednesday's fire.

It is in addition to a guarantee of funding for temporary accommodation for the families unable to return to their homes, and funding for legal representation to ensure residents' voices are heard during a planned public inquiry.

Four weeks rent in London, then what do they do?

 

[m7mcfc]

Four weeks rent in London, then what do they do?

A weeks rent in Kensington.

 

[kaz7]

Four weeks rent in London, then what do they do?

The money is additional to the temp accomodation being paid for,the council will arrange new homes for them,they'll get priority over everyone else on the list and stay in hotels till homes are found,i think the powers that be are doing good now after a shaky start

 

[Vic]

Four weeks rent in London, then what do they do?

Probably move into a house that would otherwise have gone to some other family on the waiting list who now have to stay longer in their high-rise flat.

 

[worsleyweb]

Death toll has risen from 58 - exact figure to be announced tommorow. Sky news.

 

[Crouchinho]

Death toll has risen from 58 - exact figure to be announced tommorow. Sky news.

What are the estimations?