Grenfell Tower block disaster

[Gabriel]

600 tower blocks across the country may need retrospective work to be reckad. 3 confirmed to be dangerous. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366646

Presumably the 'three' in the BBC report refers to samples tested, not tower blocks. The article is unclear, but if it is the cladding, then the number of buildings 'at potential risk' will be much higher.

 

[cibaman]

The residents in these buildings need to be re-housed as a matter of urgency. The buildings would be easy targets for terrorists and mentally unbalanced arsonists.

 

[Gabriel]

The residents in these buildings need to be re-housed as a matter of urgency. The buildings would be easy targets for terrorists and mentally unbalanced arsonists.

As opposed to the balanced ones? ;-)

Not sure how thousands of people can be rehoused as a matter of urgency. I agree it's a pressing problem, but with a shortage of housing stock already, it's going to be nigh on impossible. How do you even go about prioritising which people need moved first?

However, as you point out, were something else to happen, be that deliberate or accidental, then the Government would be in an even worse position.

 

[allan harper]

As opposed to the balanced ones? ;-)

Not sure how thousands of people can be rehoused as a matter of urgency. I agree it's a pressing problem, but with a shortage of housing stock already, it's going to be nigh on impossible. How do you even go about prioritising which people need moved first?

However, as you point out, were something else to happen, be that deliberate or accidental, then the Government would be in an even worse position.

If you lived in one of those tower blocks would you think it was a matter of urgency?

 

[Gabriel]

If you lived in one of those tower blocks would you think it was a matter of urgency?

Of course.

However, as I pointed out, where will the Government start? Will it leave it to local authorities to decide, and if so, which residents are to be given priority? Which block is to be deemed less at risk, in that its residents have to wait while others in similar buildings are moved to 'safer' accommodation? Some areas will have precious little space to rehouse so many people, so should those people expect to be moved further afield?

I'm not being flippant, just pointing out some of the logistical problems facing those who must decide.

 

[kaz7]

Tests have revealed that at least seven tower blocks across England are fitted with combustible cladding.

Among them are the Chalcots Estate in Camden, north London, where the cladding is being removed, and the Mount Wise Tower in Plymouth.

Theresa May said local authorities and fire services are "taking all possible steps" to ensure the towers are safe, while hundreds more buildings are due for checks.

Details of at-risk structures will be revealed after residents are informed, the Department for Communities and Local Government says.

Earlier, Downing Street said 600 buildings in England had "similar cladding", but it was later confirmed that there are 600 high rises with any form of cladding.

The Government is performing tests on 100 tower blocks a day, with results coming back "within hours", Mrs May said.

A Number 10 spokeswoman said residents of affected buildings could be rehomed if the blocks are found to be unsafe after further tests.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

600 tower blocks says to me a complete failure in the regulations.

 

[Gabriel]

600 tower blocks says to me a complete failure in the regulations.

Chap on BBC London News, Arnold Tarnley, saying that regulations and accountability have been eroded, with so much subcontracting that it's very difficult to pinpoint who should be held responsible for certain decisions.

 

[yeseye]

Chap on BBC London News, Arnold Tarnley, saying that regulations and accountability have been eroded, with so much subcontracting that it's very difficult to pinpoint who should be held responsible for certain decisions.

A principal contractor is the contractor with control over the construction phase of a project involving more than one contractor. They are appointed in writing by the client (commercial or domestic) to plan, manage, monitor and coordinate health and safety during this phase.

 

[Gabriel]

A principal contractor is the contractor with control over the construction phase of a project involving more than one contractor. They are appointed in writing by the client (commercial or domestic) to plan, manage, monitor and coordinate health and safety during this phase.

Thanks.

So in this scenario, would that be Rydon?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...or-grenfell-a-safety-and-accountability-issue

 

[yeseye]

Thanks.

So in this scenario, would that be Rydon?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...or-grenfell-a-safety-and-accountability-issue

Yes, i think Rydon ( The Principal Contractor) and KCTMO (The Client) will be held to account.
Also Artelia who managed the project . There will be a lot of people having sleepless nights!

 

[SilverFox2]

Yes, i think Rydon ( The Principal Contractor) and KCTMO (The Client) will be held to account.

The CDM regs insist on risk assessments and method statements for all construction tasks irrespective of who does them does it not ?
If so these will have been signed and filed and available.
Will the inspections of these method statements have been done by HSE or local council ?

 

[BlueAnorak]

A drive to make high rise accommodation energy efficient and reduce CO2 emissions for the cheapest price is the reason for this crisis. Nothing to do with gentrification.
Similar to the reason for the dash for diesel cars. Both had unforseen consequences.

 

[yeseye]

The CDM regs insist on risk assessments and method statements for all construction tasks irrespective of who does them does it not ?
If so these will have been signed and filed and available.
Will the inspections of these method statements have been done by HSE or local council ?

http://www.cdm-2015-regulations.co.uk/

 

[BlueAnorak]

The CDM regs insist on risk assessments and method statements for all construction tasks irrespective of who does them does it not ?
If so these will have been signed and filed and available.
Will the inspections of these method statements have been done by HSE or local council ?

No physical material safety assessments during construction any more. It's all self assesment with the assesment docs being checked over by the local council.
The self assesments are mosrly subcontracted out - except by the very big boys who run it as a separate operation. Many councils subcontract the self assesment validtion work - often to the same companies. All it needs is a confusing standard or omissions from materials data sheet and we're all in trouble.

3 stages:
- Design and Planning
- Self Assesment that all the boxes are ticked
- Assesment Validation

Supposedly safer but garbage in garbage out applies. Common sense gets lost.

 

[SilverFox2]

No physical material safety assessments during construction any more. It's all self assesment with the assesment docs being checked over by the local council.
The self assesments are mosrly subcontracted out - except by the very big boys who run it as a separate operation. Many councils subcontract the self assesment validtion work - often to the same companies. All it needs is a confusing standard or omissions from materials data sheet and we're all in trouble.
3 stages:
Design and Planning
Self Assesment
Assesment Validation

Thanks my friend, I am very much out of date I´m afraid so the original good idea has been diluted so that unaccountability can be allowed for the apprentice politicians in the town halls. Pardon my cynicism.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Thanks my friend, I am very much out of date I´m afraid so the original good idea has been diluted so that unaccountability can be allowed for the apprentice politicians in the town halls. Pardon my cynicism.

You're not wrong. A close friend did this for a living till he retired 2 years ago. He has been expecting something like this for a while. That's what box ticking exercises do. They're supposed to lower the risk but in my experience they often just hide it.

 

[yeseye]

You're not wrong. A close friend did this for a living till he retired 2 years ago. He has been expecting something like this for a while. That's what box ticking exercises do. They're supposed to lower the risk but in my experience they just hide it.

Are the HSE involved in this disaster, because if they are, they will leave no stone unturned and they will go after many organisations? Could we be looking at corporate manslaughter charges for the directors of some of these companies?

 

[SilverFox2]

You're not wrong. A close friend did this for a living till he retired 2 years ago. He has been expecting something like this for a while. That's what box ticking exercises do. They're supposed to lower the risk but in my experience they often just hide it.

If this had been refurbishment of a non council owned tower block would the CDM be HSE controlled or is the local council still the ones who do the safety checks ?

 

[BlueAnorak]

The CDM regs insist on risk assessments and method statements for all construction tasks irrespective of who does them does it not ?
If so these will have been signed and filed and available.
Will the inspections of these method statements have been done by HSE or local council ?

So many risk assessments delivered by different bodies. My friend tells me construction delivery is generally HSE. Construction materials, building reg compliance and fire safety regs is generally council.
I delivered a software project for site safety inspections using mobile phones to take pics a couple of years ago. The legal requirement list was massive.