Has the bubble burst?

BillyShears said:
I've always wondered how FC United came about, and I guess now I know.

City are one of the best run football clubs in the league. Do they have issues they need to deal with? Absolutely. Ticketing is obviously the most pressing, but there's others too. None of those issues though diminish what the new ownership have built. And what the ownership have built shouldn't diminish those genuine issues.

But lot of the complaints around people feeling disconnected from the club they once knew, are there because it isn't the club you once knew anymore. Top flight isn't the same as it was in the 80's and even the 90's. It's now a global entertainment product. Like it or lump it, that's what it is.

With the success comes the global nature of the business. The feeling that Manchester isn't the centre of Manchester City anymore. I don't agree with that, but I can understand why if you feel like something belongs only to you, and then it gets given to everyone in the world, you can feel like you've been robbed. It is its own weird form of entitlement.

I often think about it like this. Had the primarily local supporter base been given a choice back in 2007. Choice 1: sensible investment, slow progress, local focus, hopefully a cup in the next decade OR Choice 2: knocking United off their perch, and becoming the most successful club in England full stop.

How many of you would've chosen 1?
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That would be option 2 for me, thank you very much.
 
.db. said:
Are you happy that PL clubs are ruining the stands across the league and therefore ruining the PL product and can you not see that this change in culture in the stands is the start of the end of the PL?
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Again, here's a hard truth. What you've posted above isn't true. The PL is currently and will remain for the foreseeable future a fucking behemoth. They don't care that much about match day supporters because we don't line their pockets the way the TV companies do. What Paramount have just done with the CL is probably going to end with an even bigger payday for the next PL tv deal.

The PL product isn't the stands. It's the players, and the talent drain from Europe into Premier League isn't going to stop because the stadia don't bounce the way they used to in the past. In many respects, and you know this, everyone wants the overseas dollar in the stadiums because of the potential upselling once they arrive. None of this is unique to City, it's just what Premier League football has become.

So, the choice is this. Do you fight where you can but not let it diminish your enjoyment, or do you give up and go the FC United route. It really is that binary, because the overall dynamic isn't going to change. Especially not when supporters still weaponise empty seats, when as a culture we are almost completely incapable of real collective action unless it's force fed to the brain dead by Farage or some other right wing bellend with a platform.
 
BillyShears said:
Again, here's a hard truth. What you've posted above isn't true. The PL is currently and will remain for the foreseeable future a fucking behemoth. They don't care that much about match day supporters because we don't line their pockets the way the TV companies do. What Paramount have just done with the CL is probably going to end with an even bigger payday for the next PL tv deal.

The PL product isn't the stands. It's the players, and the talent drain from Europe into Premier League isn't going to stop because the stadia don't bounce the way they used to in the past. In many respects, and you know this, everyone wants the overseas dollar in the stadiums because of the potential upselling once they arrive. None of this is unique to City, it's just what Premier League football has become.

So, the choice is this. Do you fight where you can but not let it diminish your enjoyment, or do you give up and go the FC United route. It really is that binary, because the overall dynamic isn't going to change. Especially not when supporters still weaponise empty seats, when as a culture we are almost completely incapable of real collective action unless it's force fed to the brain dead by Farage or some other right wing bellend with a platform.
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Billy Shears talking sense. Who would have thunk it!
 
One of the problems we've got as far as expectations go is that we've just had a seven year period there, that wasn't just once in a lifetime, but once in the history of football in this country. No other club has ever managed to be so consistent, for so long. And they probably never will.

As brilliant as it was, it was a freak spell in history, that if you don't accept is never going to matched, is going to leave you underwhelmed with anything that comes from now on.
 
BillyShears said:
Again, here's a hard truth. What you've posted above isn't true. The PL is currently and will remain for the foreseeable future a fucking behemoth. They don't care that much about match day supporters because we don't line their pockets the way the TV companies do. What Paramount have just done with the CL is probably going to end with an even bigger payday for the next PL tv deal.

The PL product isn't the stands. It's the players, and the talent drain from Europe into Premier League isn't going to stop because the stadia don't bounce the way they used to in the past. In many respects, and you know this, everyone wants the overseas dollar in the stadiums because of the potential upselling once they arrive. None of this is unique to City, it's just what Premier League football has become.

So, the choice is this. Do you fight where you can but not let it diminish your enjoyment, or do you give up and go the FC United route. It really is that binary, because the overall dynamic isn't going to change. Especially not when supporters still weaponise empty seats, when as a culture we are almost completely incapable of real collective action unless it's force fed to the brain dead by Farage or some other right wing bellend with a platform.
Click to expand...

Yeah because the left wing don't feed shit either, lots to unpack in that post but ruined by some swivel eyed loonery.
 
hilts said:
Nope, I wasn't the one complaining about the forum.
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I was referring to your comment

You Are Free To Not Read, Not Comment Or Even Ignore Posters. Your personal wants are not our concern tbh.

Same goes for you. Don’t read my posts in future
 
BillyShears said:
With the success comes the global nature of the business. The feeling that Manchester isn't the centre of Manchester City anymore. I don't agree with that, but I can understand why if you feel like something belongs only to you, and then it gets given to everyone in the world, you can feel like you've been robbed. It is its own weird form of entitlement.

I often think about it like this. Had the primarily local supporter base been given a choice back in 2007. Choice 1: sensible investment, slow progress, local focus, hopefully a cup in the next decade OR Choice 2: knocking United off their perch, and becoming the most successful club in England full stop.

How many of you would've chosen 1?
Click to expand...
I don’t think your argument makes a lot of sense. It’s not entitlement to want to feel connected to your club. The entire British footballing game was built on community and the connection with fans. It’s not an either or situation as well, where the only way to be successful is to alienate huge sections of our fanbase.

You can pick option two, but not price out loads of our fans, or give tickets away to ticket agencies and then away fans. Instead they’ve chosen whoever can pay the most for a ticket. Do you think that’s right?

if you’d have asked those same fans in 2007 you can have all the success in the world, but you’ll have to watch in your front room because we don’t want legacy fans there, the answer might be a bit different. Success isn’t everything, especially if you can’t attend any games anymore

If local fans or the core fanbase don’t mean anything as welll we may as well move the ground to America. I’m sure you’d accept the global nature of that.
 
BillyShears said:
Again, here's a hard truth. What you've posted above isn't true. The PL is currently and will remain for the foreseeable future a fucking behemoth. They don't care that much about match day supporters because we don't line their pockets the way the TV companies do. What Paramount have just done with the CL is probably going to end with an even bigger payday for the next PL tv deal.

The PL product isn't the stands. It's the players, and the talent drain from Europe into Premier League isn't going to stop because the stadia don't bounce the way they used to in the past. In many respects, and you know this, everyone wants the overseas dollar in the stadiums because of the potential upselling once they arrive. None of this is unique to City, it's just what Premier League football has become.
Click to expand...
I think you’re being short sighted, just like the PL clubs are. I think the PL is at the very start of the end of its time being the top league due to what’s going on.

The stands are hugely important to the product. I tend to switch off random games on tele that have got a shit atmosphere, I find them boring. And I found Covid football with no fans about as interesting as watching paint dry.

There might even be a good few years of money getting even bigger ahead. But, while the steamroller is still in its parking bay, the tarmac is being ordered ready for starting on the road to the end.

But not only the stands, the football is getting worse. This season, the PL is four minutes a game down on just two seasons ago with Ball-in-play. I’m noticeably shouting more at the refs to get the fucking game going as we wait watching 22 blokes stood still on some grass while some dead ball or set piece takes 50 seconds to be taken or teams have their keeper sit down or an outfield player fake a head injury so the manager can have a time out with the team by the dugout. This happens much less in CL games than PL games.

The PL is starting to get more and more boring both on the pitch and in the stands.

I can see it a mile off, unless we keep moaning and protesting and force changes.

We’ve seen it with Serie A. Nobody thought Serie A would end up the way it did back in the midst of its height in the 90s with giant full stadiums and great players making a great league. But it ended up with Inter and Milan getting 35k average attendances in an 80k stadium, Juventus getting Derby day attendances of 19k against Torino in a 70k stadium and knocking that stadium down when it was only 17 years old, and only one Serie A team winning the CL in 22 years.
 
.db. said:
I think you’re being short sighted, just like the PL clubs are. I think the PL is at the very start of the end of its time being the top league due to what’s going on.

The stands are hugely important to the product. I tend to switch off random games on tele that have got a shit atmosphere, I find them boring. And I found Covid football with no fans about as interesting as watching paint dry.

There might even be a good few years of money getting even bigger ahead. But, while the steamroller is still in its parking bay, the tarmac is being ordered ready for starting on the road to the end.

But not only the stands, the football is getting worse. This season, the PL is four minutes a game down on just two seasons ago with Ball-in-play. I’m noticeably shouting more at the refs to get the fucking game going as we wait watching 22 blokes stood still on some grass while some dead ball or set piece takes 50 seconds to be taken or teams have their keeper sit down or an outfield player fake a head injury so the manager can have a time out with the team by the dugout. This happens much less in CL games than PL games.

The PL is starting to get more and more boring both on the pitch and in the stands.

I can see it a mile off, unless we keep moaning and protesting and force changes.

We’ve seen it with Serie A. Nobody thought Serie A would end up the way it did back in the midst of its height in the 90s with giant full stadiums and great players making a great league. But it ended up with Inter and Milan getting 35k average attendances in an 80k stadium, Juventus getting Derby day attendances of 19k against Torino in a 70k stadium and knocking that stadium down when it was only 17 years old, and only one Serie A team winning the CL in 22 years.
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I’ve discussed the Série A example with mates but unfortunately I think the financials have changed. TV deals Trump match day supporters. And those deals exist because of demand. I don’t necessarily disagree with a lot of your logic and your feelings. I just happen to think we’ve crossed the rubicon.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
I don’t think your argument makes a lot of sense. It’s not entitlement to want to feel connected to your club. The entire British footballing game was built on community and the connection with fans. It’s not an either or situation as well, where the only way to be successful is to alienate huge sections of our fanbase.

You can pick option two, but not price out loads of our fans, or give tickets away to ticket agencies and then away fans. Instead they’ve chosen whoever can pay the most for a ticket. Do you think that’s right?

if you’d have asked those same fans in 2007 you can have all the success in the world, but you’ll have to watch in your front room because we don’t want legacy fans there, the answer might be a bit different. Success isn’t everything, especially if you can’t attend any games anymore

If local fans or the core fanbase don’t mean anything as welll we may as well move the ground to America. I’m sure you’d accept the global nature of that.
Click to expand...

Local fans don’t generate the money. That’s not my opinion it’s a fact. That’s the issue hence I called it a global entertainment product. TV deals have driven where the PL is.

Your point about tickets makes my point. There’s a demand from day trippers which allows clubs (not just City) to get away with what they’re doing with price gouging.
 
BillyShears said:
Local fans don’t generate the money. That’s not my opinion it’s a fact. That’s the issue hence I called it a global entertainment product. TV deals have driven where the PL is.

Your point about tickets makes my point. There’s a demand from day trippers which allows clubs (not just City) to get away with what they’re doing with price gouging.
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You're right Billy. They dont want the likes of me there who spends next to nothing at the match apart from a pint now and then.
 
It's a bit paradoxical that most of us would agree we are playing shit - and yet we're second in the league! A position that, for much of City's history, was a dream.

I think a lot of the current discontent arises from what is perceived as a disconnect between the club and its legacy supporters. (Younger supporters may have a different POV because they have known nothing else.) But many of us feel the club is pushing us away, and won't give a fuck if we never go again as long as they can attract more tourists.

Maybe this is the price of becoming a 'big' club. You end up as a clone of Rags and Scousepool, and we all know what they are. Just another money machine.
 
.db. said:
I think you’re being short sighted, just like the PL clubs are. I think the PL is at the very start of the end of its time being the top league due to what’s going on.

The stands are hugely important to the product. I tend to switch off random games on tele that have got a shit atmosphere, I find them boring. And I found Covid football with no fans about as interesting as watching paint dry.

There might even be a good few years of money getting even bigger ahead. But, while the steamroller is still in its parking bay, the tarmac is being ordered ready for starting on the road to the end.

But not only the stands, the football is getting worse. This season, the PL is four minutes a game down on just two seasons ago with Ball-in-play. I’m noticeably shouting more at the refs to get the fucking game going as we wait watching 22 blokes stood still on some grass while some dead ball or set piece takes 50 seconds to be taken or teams have their keeper sit down or an outfield player fake a head injury so the manager can have a time out with the team by the dugout. This happens much less in CL games than PL games.

The PL is starting to get more and more boring both on the pitch and in the stands.

I can see it a mile off, unless we keep moaning and protesting and force changes.

We’ve seen it with Serie A. Nobody thought Serie A would end up the way it did back in the midst of its height in the 90s with giant full stadiums and great players making a great league. But it ended up with Inter and Milan getting 35k average attendances in an 80k stadium, Juventus getting Derby day attendances of 19k against Torino in a 70k stadium and knocking that stadium down when it was only 17 years old, and only one Serie A team winning the CL in 22 years.
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Post Covid the crowds in serie A have increased dramatically but you’re spot on about those numbers in the not too distant past.
 
BrianW said:
It's a bit paradoxical that most of us would agree we are playing shit - and yet we're second in the league! A position that, for much of City's history, was a dream.

I think a lot of the current discontent arises from what is perceived as a disconnect between the club and its legacy supporters. (Younger supporters may have a different POV because they have known nothing else.) But many of us feel the club is pushing us away, and won't give a fuck if we never go again as long as they can attract more tourists.

Maybe this is the price of becoming a 'big' club. You end up as a clone of Rags and Scousepool, and we all know what they are. Just another money machine.
Click to expand...
Bayern are a big club and are up with the biggest revenue earners in Europe (5th last season). However, their season tickets start at €175 for adults and they have 16,000 STs under €280, with individual match tickets starting at €19 for adults for most games but even €15 for some games. They are in a lesser league with lower broadcasting revenue than the PL (they got nearly £100m less broadcasting revenue than Arsenal last season) yet still keep prices like that, looking after their fanbase, and are still generating more revenue than Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea… it makes you think PL clubs are doing it all wrong.

IMG_3008.webp
 
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