High line and pressing

[Damanino]

It could be horror when play a higher defence and Kompany is injured and we will have a Nastasic-Lescott (two left footed so one of them will be in his uncomfortable spot), or Nastasic-Garcia and we all know how fast Garcia is and how fast he turns or even Lescott-Garcia which is a liability even with last years defence not to mention high line...

But I am not against it I hope we can get used to it, it is clearly very hard for opponents to play against it just remember how hard suffered when in CL opponents started to press us we didnt know what to do we couldnt play our possession game we were giving the all back to defenders as we hardly could make good passes middle of the pitch, so theball went back to defenders and Kompany or Lescott just hoofed that was the Dortmund match basically at home...
(While they had a good chance every 5 minutes and Hart was tested nearly with nearly every one of them.)

If we kept Mancini the same thing would happen again when we faced similar teams in CL again as he had no ideas how to play against them.

It will take time surely, hope we will have a few really good results in August-September that would give the players more belief in the new system and they would learn it much faster.

If we have some horrible results in the start well the pressure would be huge every small mistake coming from the new system would be highlighted and maybe they would struggle to learn it.

It's hard because we are probably giving up the best defensive record in the hope of becoming so much more stronger in attacking and the whole mentality of the team is changing to more risky/less timid.

 

[Anonymous]

It's hard because we are probably giving up the best defensive record in the hope of becoming so much more stronger in attacking and the whole mentality of the team is changing to more risky/less timid.

Yeah that's pretty much how I see it. Good post btw I agree most of it. Hopefully giving Newcastle a tonking will set us on the right path.

 

[menace]

don't think the high line is to blame for the goals it's just poor defending plain an simple, all the goals we've conceded in the audi cup and against arsenal were mistakes not tracking runners, not playing to the whistle, handling the ball in the area, poor clearances etc.
we have a new manager who's trying new systems there are going to be positives and negatives we've conceded far to much goals yes but we've also destroyed milan, stand toe to toe with the current European champions creating more clear cut chances than they did and out played arsenal to the point were they had to play us on the counter even the commentator who was a arsenal fan admitted that had our finishing and final ball been better we would of been out of sight in the fist half. we still have nasty to return from injury an arguably our best player sergio hasn't kicked a ball in preseason have some faith.

 

[afro2007]

if we're doing high lines and pressing then i suggest we understand the meaning of it.high lines and pressing comes with players winning the balls from their opponents and making use of the space created in the field as well as tackle well not to create fouls in your area,i believe if the players are able to understand the system then we can say the high lines and pressing is well executed.i don't understand why we keep our men behind the ball when it shows that tactic hasn't helped us in the CL,but we can deploy that in the PL cause we all know the teams don't ask a lot of tactical questions from teams.if you looked at Barcelona,Dortmund and Shakhtar Donetsk have benefited from this pressing play and now Bayern Munich is using the high lines and pressing to punish opponent who's work rate are poor.

 

[woahmark]

don't think the high line is to blame for the goals it's just poor defending plain an simple, all the goals we've conceded in the audi cup and against arsenal were mistakes not tracking runners, not playing to the whistle, handling the ball in the area, poor clearances etc.
we have a new manager who's trying new systems there are going to be positives and negatives we've conceded far to much goals yes but we've also destroyed milan, stand toe to toe with the current European champions creating more clear cut chances than they did and out played arsenal to the point were they had to play us on the counter even the commentator who was a arsenal fan admitted that had our finishing and final ball been better we would of been out of sight in the fist half. we still have nasty to return from injury an arguably our best player sergio hasn't kicked a ball in preseason have some faith.

This, definitely this.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Oh dear! Arsenal and the rags have been playing with a high defensive line for over a decade. Lasted long enough for them.

They have done it with 2 fast CB and a very mobile defensive mid. I don't see these strengths in our team at the moment.

You said it won't last long in the prem. It will and it has done with those two teams. You say they've done it with fast CB's, can you tell me which one of Arsenal or United's centre halves are quicker than Vinny or Nasty? Similarly, which one of their defensive midfield players are more mobile than Fernandinho or Rodwell ... ?

The truth is they don't really play with defensive midfield players in the manner in which we've done in the last few seasons under the Italian. United won the league with Carrick as their deepest lying midfield player and he's neither mobile, nor quick. Arsenal ... well again Arteta is neither quick nor mobile.

Personally I think it's a lazy British mentality to panic about high lines. It's a bit like the nonsense repeated every few months about zonal marking. Also you've done our defenders and midfielders a huge disservice ... particularly in comparison to the two teams I've just mentioned. Neither has a midfield which can touch ours. Defensively ... well unless you think it was solely down to the genius of the previous coach that our record was so good, then you've got to give plenty of credit to the players who have ensured we have had such a good record. I trust those players to do just fine once the season starts playing with a higher defensive line than they have done previously.

I said somewhere else I do think we'll ship more goals than we did under the Italian, but then I expect we'll score more and be a much more entertaining team as well as a winning one.

Yet again you turn a thread into a personal attack. Why?
Let me give you my opinion, which is no more than an opinion and will change with time as my perception changes based on experience of watching the new system develop.

Firstly lets remove Arsenal from the equation as they haven't won anything for years and I'm quite sure that is not a model we are seeking to emulate.

So if we look at the rags, Rio, Evans and Vidic were/are fast. In front of them Scholes,Fletcher and Carrick were all mobile tenacious players who hassle and press all the time.

We are currently without Nasty, who is a great player but fast not super fast, relying on position rather than pace. In his place we have some of the slowest defenders in the league.

Vinney is fast but played only 24 league games last season. And chose to not turn up for the first half of the FA cup.


In front of the back two we have Yaya. I love him but he is not mobile. Barry fast mind, slow legs. Rodwell, good pushing forwards but not a midfield destroyer, Garcia, slow mind slow legs and Fernandinho who may be the answer but so far has failed to convince as is demonstrated by the 8 goals shipped in the last 3 games.

We also lack the lighting fast counter attacking players which teams who play with a high line rely on to put pressure deep into the opposition half simply by the threat of pace. The rags have always had that threat, we currently have Navas who is un-tried in the Prem and Aguero who is injured. I don't associate any of our other players with the sort of extreme pace the rags have used over the years.

So in my opinion at this time we will not play with a high line for more than 5 games as it will be exposed and Pellegrini (the Chilean?) will change to a system more suitable for the high pace of the Prem.

 

[Anonymous]

They have done it with 2 fast CB and a very mobile defensive mid. I don't see these strengths in our team at the moment.

You said it won't last long in the prem. It will and it has done with those two teams. You say they've done it with fast CB's, can you tell me which one of Arsenal or United's centre halves are quicker than Vinny or Nasty? Similarly, which one of their defensive midfield players are more mobile than Fernandinho or Rodwell ... ?

The truth is they don't really play with defensive midfield players in the manner in which we've done in the last few seasons under the Italian. United won the league with Carrick as their deepest lying midfield player and he's neither mobile, nor quick. Arsenal ... well again Arteta is neither quick nor mobile.

Personally I think it's a lazy British mentality to panic about high lines. It's a bit like the nonsense repeated every few months about zonal marking. Also you've done our defenders and midfielders a huge disservice ... particularly in comparison to the two teams I've just mentioned. Neither has a midfield which can touch ours. Defensively ... well unless you think it was solely down to the genius of the previous coach that our record was so good, then you've got to give plenty of credit to the players who have ensured we have had such a good record. I trust those players to do just fine once the season starts playing with a higher defensive line than they have done previously.

I said somewhere else I do think we'll ship more goals than we did under the Italian, but then I expect we'll score more and be a much more entertaining team as well as a winning one.

Yet again you turn a thread into a personal attack. Why?
Let me give you my opinion, which is no more than an opinion and will change with time as my perception changes based on experience of watching the new system develop.

Firstly lets remove Arsenal from the equation as they haven't won anything for years and I'm quite sure that is not a model we are seeking to emulate.

So if we look at the rags, Rio, Evans and Vidic were/are fast. In front of them Scholes,Fletcher and Carrick were all mobile tenacious players who hassle and press all the time.

We are currently without Nasty, who is a great player but fast not super fast, relying on position rather than pace. In his place we have some of the slowest defenders in the league.

Vinney is fast but played only 24 league games last season. And chose to not turn up for the first half of the FA cup.


In front of the back two we have Yaya. I love him but he is not mobile. Barry fast mind, slow legs. Rodwell, good pushing forwards but not a midfield destroyer, Garcia, slow mind slow legs and Fernandinho who may be the answer but so far has failed to convince as is demonstrated by the 8 goals shipped in the last 3 games.

We also lack the lighting fast counter attacking players which teams who play with a high line rely on to put pressure deep into the opposition halve simply by the threat of pace. The rags have always had that threat, we currently have Navas who is un-tried in the Prem and Aguero who is injured. I don't associate any of our other players with the sort of extreme pace the rags have used over the years.

So in my opinion at this time we will not play with a high line for more than 5 games as it will be exposed and Pellegrini (the Chilean?) will change to a system more suitable for the high pace of the Prem.

Personal attack? No idea what you're talking about. You gave your opinion I gave mine. You seem to have an answer for why our players can't do it. Time will tell but I'm confident the Chilean won't be scrapping a system of playing after a handful of games. If we start the season with a high line we'll finish the season with it. In my opinion of course.

 

[SWP's back]

Oh dear! Arsenal and the rags have been playing with a high defensive line for over a decade. Lasted long enough for them.

They have done it with 2 fast CB and a very mobile defensive mid. I don't see these strengths in our team at the moment.

You said it won't last long in the prem. It will and it has done with those two teams. You say they've done it with fast CB's, can you tell me which one of Arsenal or United's centre halves are quicker than Vinny or Nasty? Similarly, which one of their defensive midfield players are more mobile than Fernandinho or Rodwell ... ?

The truth is they don't really play with defensive midfield players in the manner in which we've done in the last few seasons under the Italian. United won the league with Carrick as their deepest lying midfield player and he's neither mobile, nor quick. Arsenal ... well again Arteta is neither quick nor mobile.

Personally I think it's a lazy British mentality to panic about high lines. It's a bit like the nonsense repeated every few months about zonal marking. Also you've done our defenders and midfielders a huge disservice ... particularly in comparison to the two teams I've just mentioned. Neither has a midfield which can touch ours. Defensively ... well unless you think it was solely down to the genius of the previous coach that our record was so good, then you've got to give plenty of credit to the players who have ensured we have had such a good record. I trust those players to do just fine once the season starts playing with a higher defensive line than they have done previously.

I said somewhere else I do think we'll ship more goals than we did under the Italian, but then I expect we'll score more and be a much more entertaining team as well as a winning one.

Great post.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

You said it won't last long in the prem. It will and it has done with those two teams. You say they've done it with fast CB's, can you tell me which one of Arsenal or United's centre halves are quicker than Vinny or Nasty? Similarly, which one of their defensive midfield players are more mobile than Fernandinho or Rodwell ... ?

The truth is they don't really play with defensive midfield players in the manner in which we've done in the last few seasons under the Italian. United won the league with Carrick as their deepest lying midfield player and he's neither mobile, nor quick. Arsenal ... well again Arteta is neither quick nor mobile.

Personally I think it's a lazy British mentality to panic about high lines. It's a bit like the nonsense repeated every few months about zonal marking. Also you've done our defenders and midfielders a huge disservice ... particularly in comparison to the two teams I've just mentioned. Neither has a midfield which can touch ours. Defensively ... well unless you think it was solely down to the genius of the previous coach that our record was so good, then you've got to give plenty of credit to the players who have ensured we have had such a good record. I trust those players to do just fine once the season starts playing with a higher defensive line than they have done previously.

I said somewhere else I do think we'll ship more goals than we did under the Italian, but then I expect we'll score more and be a much more entertaining team as well as a winning one.

Yet again you turn a thread into a personal attack. Why?
Let me give you my opinion, which is no more than an opinion and will change with time as my perception changes based on experience of watching the new system develop.

Firstly lets remove Arsenal from the equation as they haven't won anything for years and I'm quite sure that is not a model we are seeking to emulate.

So if we look at the rags, Rio, Evans and Vidic were/are fast. In front of them Scholes,Fletcher and Carrick were all mobile tenacious players who hassle and press all the time.

We are currently without Nasty, who is a great player but fast not super fast, relying on position rather than pace. In his place we have some of the slowest defenders in the league.

Vinney is fast but played only 24 league games last season. And chose to not turn up for the first half of the FA cup.


In front of the back two we have Yaya. I love him but he is not mobile. Barry fast mind, slow legs. Rodwell, good pushing forwards but not a midfield destroyer, Garcia, slow mind slow legs and Fernandinho who may be the answer but so far has failed to convince as is demonstrated by the 8 goals shipped in the last 3 games.

We also lack the lighting fast counter attacking players which teams who play with a high line rely on to put pressure deep into the opposition halve simply by the threat of pace. The rags have always had that threat, we currently have Navas who is un-tried in the Prem and Aguero who is injured. I don't associate any of our other players with the sort of extreme pace the rags have used over the years.

So in my opinion at this time we will not play with a high line for more than 5 games as it will be exposed and Pellegrini (the Chilean?) will change to a system more suitable for the high pace of the Prem.

Personal attack? No idea what you're talking about. You gave your opinion I gave mine. You seem to have an answer for why our players can't do it. Time will tell but I'm confident the Chilean won't be scrapping a system of playing after a handful of games. If we start the season with a high line we'll finish the season with it. In my opinion of course.

You ask why I felt your post was a personal attack. I've highlighted the language which makes it personal. Perhaps I can interest you in a CRM course which may help explain why your post was misinterpreted?

;-)

 

[Anonymous]

Not really my idea of a personal attack there GD but apologies nonetheless!