Hillsborough verdicts reached

[FanchesterCity]

Whilst Hillsborough had unique issues which contributed to the disaster, I still think it's right to say it could have happened anywhere.
It's a turn of phrase more than statement of absolute fact, but the essence is that tiny turnstiles and large numbers of fans queuing on narrow streets (where emergency services would struggle to gain access) was common place. Of course a disaster elsewhere would have different characteristics, but as Taylor himself noted - fans were being subjected to ever decreasing levels of comfort and safety.
You can go to many grounds today and still get a glimpse of the overcrowded concourses (try Old Trafford away end). I''m not saying they are lethal, but it does make you wonder about what might happen in genuine emergency.

At City we've become accustomed to lots of space and great facilities - it's hard to feel much threat, but it's not 'typical' of most stadium.

THAT specific disaster by its very nature could only had happened there, but crushing has ocurred at other stadiums too, so it's not unique to Hillsborough.

Overall, the phrase is more of a sentiment. They were just fans like the rest of us. Any set of fans on that given day would most likely have suffered the same fate, and where it not for stadium safety reforms, there would likely have been another disaster of another type in another stadium.

 

[FanchesterCity]

I heard somewhere over the last couple of days that "escape" gates in the ground opened INWARD into the pens.?? How the fuck was that ever going to work in a crush??

They opened outwards but were not designed to be exits - they were for access into the pen if their was trouble or an emergency (such as illness) but not a crushing scenario.
The gates had steps on the inside of the pen because the bottom end of the pen was lower than the pitch, so would not have helped either.
At the very front of the pen was a concrete wall, just about waist height, then the fencing was mounted on top of that... to scale the fence would take some effort as I would estimate it to be about 8ft, with a spiked inward leaning overhang at the top.
The gates where also below the minimum set by the Green Guide - but I believe this was a recommendation and not a mandatory mininum. They were 0.79m wide against the Green Guide's recommended 1.1m

 

[Carver]

Only ever went in one of those pens once, vs Sheffield Utd at bramhall lane. The gates between pens were controlled by a steward, who I think could lock it if he wished. It absolutely shit me up and I never went in a stand with them in again, selecting matches without them or seats, if available. At Maine Rd the kippax was of course on the side and any surge was not as big and would dissipate diagonally as pushing went in the direction of the goal rather than straight down and also because we were not penned in people could move to less crowded areas of the stand.
Maine Rd also had the front wall, then the cinder track before railings on the kippax, so there was room to attend anyone taken ill as well as it being a refuge area.

I have a somewhat vague memory of the rails being attached to the wall for the first season that they were up, but I'm not too sure.

Edit: yes they were on the wall and higher like the north stand railing but this was done after the park type rails beyond the cinder track.

Ii do emember the barriers changing from being about 12 feet long to continuous from one set of exit steps to another. As a kid my dad told me not to stand behind the barrier but in front of it for the very reason of being crushed (someone has to stand behind them though).

 

[M18CTID]

Conn's right on that. The pens stopped people spreading sideways, as others have said I think there was a route round the fence but it was at the top of the terrace and impossible to get to once you were past it. No way out.

From shortly afterwards, the gates at the front of stands were left open if memory serves.

Yep, straight after I think. Also, ground capacities were slashed at stadia across the country by about 15% IIRC. Also, if I'm not mistaken the now familiar 7.45 kick-off time for evening kick-offs came about as a result of the disaster, replacing the 7.30 kick-off time which was the previous norm.

 

[East Level 2]

I'm not sure that's true but will have to double check.
From memory there were gates at the back (to the sides) of each pen allowing fans to move between between the pens, and it was this that gave rise to the theory of 'self leveling'. At Semi-Finals they were locked in the open position. However, Taylor pointed out that once the pens became full it was nigh on impossible to climb back up through the crowd to get to those gates, and furthermore, most fans didn't know they existed anyway.

I agree about the gates at the back allowing some movement but I think the corner pens were higher and couldn't be accessed from the central pens behind the goal.

 

[FanchesterCity]

I agree about the gates at the back allowing some movement but I think the corner pens were higher and couldn't be accessed from the central pens behind the goal.

My understanding is that fans were able to move across all six pens via the two gates either side of pens 3 & 4. Pens 1 & 2 were more or less combined, and pens 5 & 6 had a barrier segregating the corner, but with a barrier / gate towards the front rather than the back.

 

[FanchesterCity]

These are the gates that were between pens 2<->3 and 4<->5:

 

[steviemc]

So what? The police lied over and over and over again, right up till the very last minute, 27 years down the line and if writs and more court action is needed to cost those responsible careers, pensions and their reputations then so be it.

I'd do the same in fact I think the majority would, yourself included.

I think the issue being suggested is about what constitutes 'closure'. There's nothing sinister in asking that question, and nobody should ever be ostracized for asking that question. Forums should never ever become a 'closed shop'. Lose that value that our country is so supposedly very proud of, and you detract from serious debate, irrespective of whether one's opinion agrees or disagrees with the majority.

I have no issue with the verdict, however I do worry whether the pursuance of further justice will be beneficial. There will very unlikely be further heads to roll, based on the major problem that there are very few existing people that could be directly, or indirectly incriminated with regard to the proceedings on that particular day. That is a perfectly reasoned question for anybody to ask.

What constitutes closure for one person can be entirely different for another, and selectively criticizing a person for suggesting this, is not what I expect from a forum that allows far more open and varied debate, on much wider issues than this one.

 

[moggymoz]

I remember being at Old Trafford behind the goal (Giggs depute) and being crushed to fuck...Was pretty frightening.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Anyone go up to St James Park for an FA Cup tie in the late 70's? City fans were stood in the corner of the Gallowgate end and Newcastle fans had the rest of it. We were told it was ticket only but they were letting people pay on the gate. There was a crush in the area where the Newcastle fans were and they started spilling onto the pitch. The game was stopped while the police moved the fans, although they put them in with the City fans and fighting broke out.