How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Uncle Wally One Ball said:
It is a national scandal that Boris Johnson wrote essays in support of both remain and leave and couldnt decide which until he saw a personally beneficial opportunity in jumping on leave. This tory govt are nothing more than chancers.
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A bunch of low-rent Arthur Daleys.
Except he had some redeeming qualities.
 
I am genuinely baffled by this continuing isolationism, politically, economically and socially.
There can’t be that many votes in it given the gradual awakening of people from the brexit stupor.
Is it just to make it harder to attempt re-joining at some future date, whatever the circumstances?
If it is, then we are looking at an act of sabotage and treason against our country.
 
Kirkstall Blue said:


We have lost 4% GDP £100 billion in lost revenue and £40 billion tax loss and Hunt wants us to become the next Silicon Valley he is off his trolley seriously.
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By Silicon Valley, he means having to piss in bottles while at work because employees won't be allowed time to go use the toilets and people having to work 3 jobs because they can't afford to live, and people dying needlessly because the NHS has ceased to function adequately through a lack of funding.
It's what the Tories have been pursuing for decades and now here we are.
 
Bodicoteblue said:
I am genuinely baffled by this continuing isolationism, politically, economically and socially.
There can’t be that many votes in it given the gradual awakening of people from the brexit stupor.
Is it just to make it harder to attempt re-joining at some future date, whatever the circumstances?
If it is, then we are looking at an act of sabotage and treason against our country.
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Nothing can happen in this Parliament now. The Conservatives are barely holding things together as it is, and just the rumour of last week’s Swiss story threatened to tear them apart. Starmer will continue to prevaricate but if nothing substantial is ready to be changed in 2025, then he’ll have done the country a disservice.
 
I think the only way we can re-join is by holding another referendum and that would be political suicide for any party who proposed it. It would also galvanise the leave vote as they would feel that the democratic mandate achieved at the last referendum was being undermined. That could have serious ramifications for the UK political system especially as faith in our democracy has plummeted over the last few years. No party would risk taking us back into the EU without a democratic mandate that expressed the mythical "will of the people"

The re-join campaign would have to be honest and tell people that there would be every chance we would have to accept the Euro, freedom of movement, join Schengen, be at the behest of the ECB and play a full part in the Capitalist construct that will perhaps one day lead to an EU state and the watering down of British democracy to what would be possibly be at best a regional tier of government.

On the other side the "Stay out" campaign would have to justify their record which since Brexit has been pretty appalling due the gross mismanagement of this idiotic government.

It is a dangerous endeavour and could end badly as I fear the Far Right would be enhanced by a re-join victory and a country already divided would be divided even more.
 
Rascal said:
I think the only way we can re-join is by holding another referendum and that would be political suicide for any party who proposed it. It would also galvanise the leave vote as they would feel that the democratic mandate achieved at the last referendum was being undermined. That could have serious ramifications for the UK political system especially as faith in our democracy has plummeted over the last few years. No party would risk taking us back into the EU without a democratic mandate that expressed the mythical "will of the people"

The re-join campaign would have to be honest and tell people that there would be every chance we would have to accept the Euro, freedom of movement, join Schengen, be at the behest of the ECB and play a full part in the Capitalist construct that will perhaps one day lead to an EU state and the watering down of British democracy to what would be possibly be at best a regional tier of government.

On the other side the "Stay out" campaign would have to justify their record which since Brexit has been pretty appalling due the gross mismanagement of this idiotic government.

It is a dangerous endeavour and could end badly as I fear the Far Right would be enhanced by a re-join victory and a country already divided would be divided even more.
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We could just join the SM and the CU. No Euro, no Schengen, freedom of movement over 90 days dependent on having enough funds, being a student with health insurance, being self employed or having employment. Simple.
 
Bodicoteblue said:
I am genuinely baffled by this continuing isolationism, politically, economically and socially.
There can’t be that many votes in it given the gradual awakening of people from the brexit stupor.
Is it just to make it harder to attempt re-joining at some future date, whatever the circumstances?
If it is, then we are looking at an act of sabotage and treason against our country.
Click to expand...
There are some excellent posters on this thread and most have made an effort to research to form a point of view.
There is a decent percentage of people who won’t look behind the headlines in the media, or the 2 minutes on the news. These folk will probably continue to think that the countries ills are the result of the war in Ukraine and the hangover from the pandemic.
They will remain in the Brexit stupor and many will probably think migrants are the root of all evil.
 
Rascal said:
I think the only way we can re-join is by holding another referendum and that would be political suicide for any party who proposed it. It would also galvanise the leave vote as they would feel that the democratic mandate achieved at the last referendum was being undermined. That could have serious ramifications for the UK political system especially as faith in our democracy has plummeted over the last few years. No party would risk taking us back into the EU without a democratic mandate that expressed the mythical "will of the people"

The re-join campaign would have to be honest and tell people that there would be every chance we would have to accept the Euro, freedom of movement, join Schengen, be at the behest of the ECB and play a full part in the Capitalist construct that will perhaps one day lead to an EU state and the watering down of British democracy to what would be possibly be at best a regional tier of government.

On the other side the "Stay out" campaign would have to justify their record which since Brexit has been pretty appalling due the gross mismanagement of this idiotic government.

It is a dangerous endeavour and could end badly as I fear the Far Right would be enhanced by a re-join victory and a country already divided would be divided even more.
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It could be political suicide but that may largely depend on just how long the country is prepared to accept not only the economic pain but also the social pain that ensues. That pain has barely started and the continued loss in trade means continued lost taxes and that means even further cuts to public services are inevitable. No number of small deals will compensate for the staggering amount of GDP that has been lost, and every other country knows that this UK Government is now desperate for any deal- see Australia, especially after big prize of a US deal died, so they will strike as hard a bargain as possible.

The EU is a long-term project, so it would set certain expectations but would not be punitive; it wants the UK back in and welcoming it back in a penitent state would suffice, though the UK would not have it as good as before. The UK would probably have to commit to joining the Euro, but that is a movable feast- see Sweden. Similarly, it might have to commit to joining Schengen, but Ireland still isn’t part of it either, so that would be another point of discussion. It’s already part of a ‘Capitalist construct’, however, so I’m not sure that in itself would be radically novel, though I agree on the point of ‘watering down…British democracy’ (albeit I’m less sure what that means under this Government).

I sense that the UK will try to move toward a Swiss-style position first, which would not require a referendum, and then see how relations develop. That would certainly not be political suicide and could ‘simply’ be explained as renegotiating the botched terms by which the right-wing Conservatives severed ties. If successful, it might also prevent Scotland leaving the Union, a move which would be another unwelcome economic hit for all involved.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
We could just join the SM and the CU. No Euro, no Schengen, freedom of movement over 90 days dependent on having enough funds, being a student with health insurance, being self employed or having employment. Simple.
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That would set a precedent for any further joiners which would undermine the central concepts of the four freedoms, we had opt outs, what on earth makes you think the EU would say welcome home you pests have your opt outs back that is if they would accept us back at all.
 
Rascal said:
That would set a precedent for any further joiners which would undermine the central concepts of the four freedoms, we had opt outs, what on earth makes you think the EU would say welcome home you pests have your opt outs back that is if they would accept us back at all.
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Can’t see how joining the SM and CU inhibits the 4 freedoms.
 
Gabriel said:
That is one of the most terrifying breakdowns of the entire mess and deserves to be viewed by everyone. I’m not sure how any sensible MP can continue to keep shtum when they know full well the economic and now social harm this is doing and will continue to do.
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Yeah....it's becoming a bad dream isn't it.
The whole fucking saga has left me a bit emotionally depleted.
The whole concept of 'people have been polarised' ending up manifesting.

Those that were empowered by it ('woke', 'will of the people', 'suck it up' types) must be in a strange place now.
In hindsight, it's almost the same tropes and language used by the anti vaxxers (and that conspiracy dwindled out too) but people aren't the same with each other I suspect (and from my own personal experience too).
 
bluethrunthru said:
Jacob does - but he's a fucking nutter

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Meanwhile, on planet Earth....

Brexit blow: exports to Japan slump after ‘landmark’ free trade deal​

First such accord after leaving EU was predicted to bring £15bn boost but UK now lags rivals

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/26/brexit-britain-japan-trade-deal-exports-slump
 
BeerIsTheBest said:
There are some excellent posters on this thread and most have made an effort to research to form a point of view.
There is a decent percentage of people who won’t look behind the headlines in the media, or the 2 minutes on the news. These folk will probably continue to think that the countries ills are the result of the war in Ukraine and the hangover from the pandemic.
They will remain in the Brexit stupor and many will probably think migrants are the root of all evil.
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... or they'll continue blaming Ukraine and the pandemic because it's a convenient fig leaf for what they can now see was the stupidity of vote leave.
 
goalmole said:
... or they'll continue blaming Ukraine and the pandemic because it's a convenient fig leaf for what they can now see was the stupidity of vote leave.
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Yeah but the pandemic is slipping further into the rear view mirror for most people and at some stage the bastards who ask why are we sending foreign aid to places that are flooding, starving and/or dying of diseases will start asking why is Ukraine a drain on our funds....... what then

Sorry when I say bastards I meant patriots
 
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