How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Looks like Brexit hasn’t been as sunny as Tim ’not nice but dim’ Martin was hoping as he announces yet another raft of Wetherspoons closures today.

 

[Gingers Dad]

And he did it just to stay in power which he then singularly failed to do. The most idiotic leader I can remember this country ever having and I include the last 3 useless bastards in that as well.

The last three idiots wouldn't have got near it if Cameron hadn't pulled that pulled that stupid stunt. Brexit wasn't even a mainstream issue to the British public just something the Tory party had to deal with.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

And he did it just to stay in power which he then singularly failed to do. The most idiotic leader I can remember this country ever having and I include the last 3 useless bastards in that as well.

It’s some list though.
Cameron - a spineless toff who feared UKIP so much he fucked the country.
May- well, who knows what she did.
Johnson- well,the man who set the bar of responsibility and morals so low that you’d have to dig to find it.
Truss- Nothing more need be said.
Sunak- a spineless toff who fears the ERG so much he will fuck the country.
We’ve gone full circle and between them they have achieved absolutely nothing.

 

[Gingers Dad]

It’s some list though.
Cameron - a spineless toff who feared UKIP so much he fucked the country.
May- well, who knows what she did.
Johnson- well,the man who set the bar of responsibility and morals so low that you’d have to dig to find it.
Truss- Nothing more need be said.
Sunak- a spineless toff who fears the ERG so much he will fuck the country.
We’ve gone full circle and between them they have achieved absolutely nothing.

Cameron gave those that followed the opportunity. He's the one that is culpable.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

If you went to Rome and took a visit to the Vatican would you need two visas?

It's not a visa. Definitely not a visa, as people understand what a visa means, and it would be one/country. There would be hell to pay if the govt had to admit that people needed visas.

It's basically like the ESTA to go into the US, as far as I can tell. €7, lasts 3 years, and allows you to visit but not remain for more than 90 days in 180. It's a security pre-scan in effect.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It’s some list though.
Cameron - a spineless toff who feared UKIP so much he fucked the country.
May- well, who knows what she did.
Johnson- well,the man who set the bar of responsibility and morals so low that you’d have to dig to find it.
Truss- Nothing more need be said.
Sunak- a spineless toff who fears the ERG so much he will fuck the country.
We’ve gone full circle and between them they have achieved absolutely nothing.

May tried her best, but wasn't allowed to by Johnson and his gang. She may have got somewhere if it wasn't for the ERG voting against everything.
Johnson then of course allows May to be blamed for not getting things done!

 

[Gingers Dad]

It's not a visa. Definitely not a visa, as people understand what a visa means, and it would be one/country. There would be hell to pay if the govt had to admit that people needed visas.

It's basically like the ESTA to go into the US, as far as I can tell. €7, lasts 3 years, and allows you to visit but not remain for more than 90 days in 180. It's a security pre-scan in effect.

Oh that's good. It certainly doesn't sound like a visa

 

[Chris in London]

I predict that Brexit will continue to be utterly wank.

what exactly is the difference between a prediction and a statement of the fucking obvious?

 

[Palerider]

Oh dear me, I hope have a tin hat and plenty of fanny wipes to deal with the inevitable reaction to your post. I'm not sure you understand the underlying intent of the thread? - it's not as per the title.

I agree about the majority required in the referendum. But imagine the outcry of "vote fixing" if it had been anything other than a majority.

"We have not left Europe, you can still visit, work and live there. If they do not want you then that is their rules not mine. I have no objection to you visiting, working, living in Europe whatsoever, it's the countries you are visiting that might object."

Not quite. We voted to become a 3rd nation and therefore agreed to those terms which we were quite happy with as a member.

We were able to deal with any nation as an EU member. All future trade deals will require enetering into an agreement as it did before, so we are miles away from achieving anything significantly better than we had before.

Go and ask the mining villages in South Wales if it was good or bad. It ripped the heart out of some communities and some, like the one my Mrs comes from have never recovered. They are often remote with one road in/out and so other industry establishing there is a non starter.

It's easy to say businesses need to adapt. Ask the owner fo the Cheshire Cheese Company how easy it is.

NI: no blood letting, but also no functioning government. A united Ireland is now a very real possibility so saying the EU changes nothing is frankly tosh.

I'm looking forward to your top 10 gains though-you've had 6 years to make a list.

Not sure I'll get to 10 benefits without using minor benefits or copying from the Web, but here goes.
1: Independence. This is obviously the crux of the whole debate and you either understand the need or not. The SNP understand!
2: Self reliance. I detest sweat shops and slave labour and I hated that freedom of movement was basically the rich EU countries using the poorer countries for cheap labour to do the worse jobs.
3: No European Court of Human Rights. I think we should decide ourselves what is right and wrong.
4: The status quo gets broken. Much political debate in this country is the middle class, University educated types arguing amongst themselves on who should be the Messiah. The working class are treated as sheep to be led, brainless, racist and xenophobic.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The problem with Brexit - our "freedoms" are meaningless particularly under this shower who are clueless anyway - maybe actually engaging with things is what Starmer thinks will make it work - it won't but that may be his logic

 

[Chris in London]

Not sure I'll get to 10 benefits without using minor benefits or copying from the Web, but here goes.
1: Independence. This is obviously the crux of the whole debate and you either understand the need or not. The SNP understand!
2: Self reliance. I detest sweat shops and slave labour and I hated that freedom of movement was basically the rich EU countries using the poorer countries for cheap labour to do the worse jobs.
3: No European Court of Human Rights. I think we should decide ourselves what is right and wrong.
4: The status quo gets broken. Much political debate in this country is the middle class, University educated types arguing amongst themselves on who should be the Messiah. The working class are treated as sheep to be led, brainless, racist and xenophobic.

on point 3, which human rights do you think we shouldn't have?

 

[JWP1926]

Not sure I'll get to 10 benefits without using minor benefits or copying from the Web, but here goes.
1: Independence. This is obviously the crux of the whole debate and you either understand the need or not. The SNP understand!
2: Self reliance. I detest sweat shops and slave labour and I hated that freedom of movement was basically the rich EU countries using the poorer countries for cheap labour to do the worse jobs.
3: No European Court of Human Rights. I think we should decide ourselves what is right and wrong.
4: The status quo gets broken. Much political debate in this country is the middle class, University educated types arguing amongst themselves on who should be the Messiah. The working class are treated as sheep to be led, brainless, racist and xenophobic.

I know you've listed multiple reasons as to why you wanted to leave the EU but can you provide any actual benefits that have supported this country? Whether that's in a positive law change, any positive economic impact, improvements to our freedom of movement or our foreign political standing.

 

[Palerider]

4:continued. So many of the working class voted Leave to get noticed. It worked, everyone talks about the red wall now.
5: Global Trade. We can engage with the world much more rather than isolating ourselves with the rich EU countries.
6: Wage lift for the working classes. With no cheap labour to use then those people doing the dirty jobs will get higher wages.
7: Creativity and Innovation. Being in the EU was safe and comfortable. It made us boring, compliant and followers. Being independent will shake us up and we can get the fire back in our bellies.

I think that covers the major points so I'll leave it there.

 

[Palerider]

on point 3, which human rights do you think we shouldn't have?

My point is not on particular human rights it's on the need for a court outside the UK to decide what is right or wrong. We can do that ourselves.

 

[Palerider]

I know you've listed multiple reasons as to why you wanted to leave the EU but can you provide any actual benefits that have supported this country? Whether that's in a positive law change, any positive economic impact, improvements to our freedom of movement or our foreign political standing.

Have a look at my point 1 again. Either you get independence or you don't. After the American Civil War which was essentially about slavery many of the former slaves returned to their previous plantations as paid workers. Others were quite happy to take their chances in the world as free men. Neither group were right or wrong, just different choices.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Not sure I'll get to 10 benefits without using minor benefits or copying from the Web, but here goes.
1: Independence. This is obviously the crux of the whole debate and you either understand the need or not. The SNP understand!
2: Self reliance. I detest sweat shops and slave labour and I hated that freedom of movement was basically the rich EU countries using the poorer countries for cheap labour to do the worse jobs.
3: No European Court of Human Rights. I think we should decide ourselves what is right and wrong.
4: The status quo gets broken. Much political debate in this country is the middle class, University educated types arguing amongst themselves on who should be the Messiah. The working class are treated as sheep to be led, brainless, racist and xenophobic.

A lot of your arguments are actually the same as the labour voices (benn, foot etc) were arguing in the early 70's when joining the eec/common market was more of a tory position. A bit of a generalisation but funny how things change. Mind you, when I was a lad Morrissey was a left wing vegan and now he's considered a neo-nazi.

 

[Palerider]

A lot of your arguments are actually the same as the labour voices (benn, foot etc) were arguing in the early 70's when joining the eec/common market was more of a tory position. A bit of a generalisation but funny how things change. Mind you, when I was a lad Morrissey was a left wing vegan and now he's considered a neo-nazi.

Morrissey. You made me smile. He is considered right wing now ain't he? According to my Google search he is now living in Rome which is a bit better than completely selling out and moving to California. I loved Michael Foot, fashion icon that he was. Politically I've moved more to the right as I've aged but I did rather strangely admire Jeremy Corbyn who everyone believes was not a fan of the EU.

 

[BrianW]

The European Court of Human Rights has fuck all to do with the EU. It was established in the 1950s, Churchill was a key influence, we, the UK, took a leading part in setting it up and every European country bar Belarus and Russia subscribe to it. That last bit, in itself, should say it all.

The reason you have an international court for such things is that WW2 taught us that individual states can and do lose their moral compass. There is nothing special about the UK that makes us somehow above such things. The truth is that the UK's human rights record is piss poor by European standards. I only wish I could say that we were special, that we would never, ever abuse human beings. But I am not that fucking naive. I do not trust the Tories - or indeed the other Westminster parties - one fucking inch with human rights. Because in their hearts, they are despots. Tin-pot Henry VIIIs who abhor any check on their power. Any check at all. Who knows where that might lead if the bridle was taken off?

The UK is such a corrupt state, so deeply corrupt it passes all understanding, that any restraint put upon it by external, civilised humans can only be a good thing.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The European Court of Human Rights has fuck all to do with the EU. It was established in the 1950s, Churchill was a key influence, we, the UK, took a leading part in setting it up and every European country bar Belarus and Russia subscribe to it. That last bit, in itself, should say it all.

The reason you have an international court for such things is that WW2 taught us that individual states can and do lose their moral compass. There is nothing special about the UK that makes us somehow above such things. The truth is that the UK's human rights record is piss poor by European standards. I only wish I could say that we were special, that we would never, ever abuse human beings. But I am not that fucking naive. I do not trust the Tories - or indeed the other Westminster parties - one fucking inch with human rights. Because in their hearts, they are despots. Tin-pot Henry VIIIs who abhor any check on their power. Any check at all. Who knows where that might lead if the bridle was taken off?

The UK is such a corrupt state, so deeply corrupt it passes all understanding, that any restraint put upon it by external, civilised humans can only be a good thing.

I've long said it's a shame a EU army of liberation can't invade, free us, and send the independence crowd to the gallows/gas chamber striking a libertarian blow on behalf of civilised humans everywhere. Sadly the EU like the league of nations and the UN only seems supported by some nations when it suits them.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Not sure I'll get to 10 benefits without using minor benefits or copying from the Web, but here goes.
1: Independence. This is obviously the crux of the whole debate and you either understand the need or not. The SNP understand!
2: Self reliance. I detest sweat shops and slave labour and I hated that freedom of movement was basically the rich EU countries using the poorer countries for cheap labour to do the worse jobs.
3: No European Court of Human Rights. I think we should decide ourselves what is right and wrong.
4: The status quo gets broken. Much political debate in this country is the middle class, University educated types arguing amongst themselves on who should be the Messiah. The working class are treated as sheep to be led, brainless, racist and xenophobic.

4:continued. So many of the working class voted Leave to get noticed. It worked, everyone talks about the red wall now.
5: Global Trade. We can engage with the world much more rather than isolating ourselves with the rich EU countries.
6: Wage lift for the working classes. With no cheap labour to use then those people doing the dirty jobs will get higher wages.
7: Creativity and Innovation. Being in the EU was safe and comfortable. It made us boring, compliant and followers. Being independent will shake us up and we can get the fire back in our bellies.

I think that covers the major points so I'll leave it there.

1/ Independence from what? ;We are still part of the Continent of Europe you cannot change geography. It doesn't matter what laws of standards we decide for ourselves if we want to trade an an independent nation we will still have to comply with the laws and standards of those who we wish to trade with.
2/ Self reliance - going well - 1m+ jobs going spare and UK productivity tanking - sweat shops are not a given - the UK could enforce its own laws to pay people a proper wage for a days work but we keep voting in a Govt who says thats bad.
3/ ECHR - you have already been asked - which of your Human Rights do you think you don't need? Is it the freedom to associate with whomever you would want to for whatever reasons you want to? Maybe you'd be OK if you were arrested and imprisoned without trial? Pray enlighten me.
4/ The status quo has been broken in the past its just that the vast majority of voters are working class yet somehow despite not being sheep they are somehow led back into voting against their own interests - its uncanny. When more working class people get access to higher education they allow themselves to be persuaded that is a bad thing because all their offspring will do is a degree in David Beckham studies so they belittle FE - the red wall is being spoken about now because its crumbling and going back to Labour because they have seen through the Levelling Up lie.
5/ Global Trade - we had that via complex agreement negotiated often by us within the EU that we then turned away from. Some of the deals we are looking to do we could do as EU members anyway. To trade you need to trade with countries that are in trading blocs - you don't just knock on someones door and ask "do you want to buy some widgets" If we join the much vaunted TPP we get a fraction of what the EU gave us in turnover but from the far side of the world - and - so you understand - our membership would be an associateship so we would take their rules and standards but not have a vote on them.
6/ wage lift - you are taking the piss now aren't you - you have seen the industrial action in the public and private sector mostly taken over too low wages and poor wage offers mostly but not exclusively by organised working class labour?
7/ creativity and innovation - hows that going - British Volt? Maybe BMW moving MINI EV production inside the EU? All our creative industries are locked out of touring the EU and most of the world thanks to Brexit.

I'll leave those truths there in response as I am sure that covers it