How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

bugsyblue said:
North Ireland and Scotland I guess are for obvious reasons that Brexit is tied into their respective border and independence conversations.

But yes it’s bizarre in England no political party wants to acknowledge the car crash that it is and discuss options on reversing the decision.
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Yes somewhat but I didn’t really want to get into the independence thing ,it just seems to me though as the Conservatives have moved to the right and become more insular, broadly the English poplulation have followed them on that path while as far as I can seen the rest of the UK have stayed again broadly with the more centre centre/ left parties. Maybe it’s just the lack of a strong opposition in England where the other parts have that strong opposite views to vote for.
Think England and therefore the UK has been very let down by both the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. And as far as Brexit is concerned is still being let down especially by Labour.
 
blueparrot said:
Yes somewhat but I didn’t really want to get into the independence thing ,it just seems to me though as the Conservatives have moved to the right and become more insular, broadly the English poplulation have followed them on that path while as far as I can seen the rest of the UK have stayed again broadly with the more centre centre/ left parties. Maybe it’s just the lack of a strong opposition in England where the other parts have that strong opposite views to vote for.
Think England and therefore the UK has been very let down by both the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. And as far as Brexit is concerned is still being let down especially by Labour.
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In fairness to labour (who I also regard as a disappointment under starmer) the Tories would love nothing more than them to set their stall out as the remain(rejoin) party, because it would allow polarisation of politics into which they can slot their nasty immigration agenda. The electorate should of course see right through this, but aided by the Murdoch press I think they would get away with it (again). Not sure about the lib Dems nowadays - a load of fannies last time I looked, and I gave up on them after they waived through austerity in the coalition govt.
 
bugsyblue said:
The majority of leavers I know (albeit I don’t know too many) who do acknowledge the bad decision they made still refuse to budge on said decision. They hide behind “well that’s democracy”.
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Surely the principle of democracy is founded upon the ability of a society to change its mind.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
In fairness to labour (who I also regard as a disappointment under starmer) the Tories would love nothing more than them to set their stall out as the remain(rejoin) party, because it would allow polarisation of politics into which they can slot their nasty immigration agenda. The electorate should of course see right through this, but aided by the Murdoch press I think they would get away with it (again). Not sure about the lib Dems nowadays - a load of fannies last time I looked, and I gave up on them after they waived through austerity in the coalition govt.
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That's exactly the reason - "they're ignoring the will of the people" would be screeched every day.

Stating that there is no plan for rejoining if elected puts it away.
They can then review it if things get worse, or if another 5 years changes perception significantly.
 
blueparrot said:
Yes somewhat but I didn’t really want to get into the independence thing ,it just seems to me though as the Conservatives have moved to the right and become more insular, broadly the English poplulation have followed them on that path while as far as I can seen the rest of the UK have stayed again broadly with the more centre centre/ left parties. Maybe it’s just the lack of a strong opposition in England where the other parts have that strong opposite views to vote for.
Think England and therefore the UK has been very let down by both the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. And as far as Brexit is concerned is still being let down especially by Labour.
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I really don't know where to start with that.
The Tories have moved left / central without a doubt in recent years - albeit slightly, but definitely more liberal than ever before. To say they have moved to the right is simply incorrect. If you don't believe me then take a look at the comments left by readers of the Daily Telegraph which is a seriously right wing rag. They are genuinely outraged by the Tories lack of right wing policies and have been for years. So you think there is strong opposition to Sturgeon and the SNP in Scotland? Also strong opposition to Drakeford and Labour in Wales? Not sure where you are picking up such vibes? Don't worry about Starmer once he is elected (and he will be) the rejoin discussions will begin in earnest. Starmer is the latest incarnation of Tony Blair - simply tell anyone and everyone exactly what they want to hear until you are elected then do the exact opposite. The Tories are a completely busted flush. They are finished for over a decade or more and rightly so. However, in political terms Brexit is relatively new. In another 5 years a more rational set of decisions can be formulated. That will fit very nicely into Starmers second term of being PM. That's when he and Labour will make the move to rejoin. The only fly in the ointment will be if the EU insist that we adopt the Euro as our currency as terms of re-entry.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Surely the principle of democracy is founded upon the ability of a society to change its mind.
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But over what timescale?
Same debate with Scottish independence.
You just can't (or shouldn't) do what the EU do
and just keep voting until you get the answer you want.
That is not democracy. I think that in all referendums an agreed time period should be set before the same issue / topic can be put back to the voters. For Brexit it should an absolute minimum of 15 years.
 
PPT said:
But over what timescale?
Same debate with Scottish independence.
You just can't (or shouldn't) do what the EU do
and just keep voting until you get the answer you want.
That is not democracy. I think that in all referendums an agreed time period should be set before the same issue / topic can be put back to the voters. For Brexit it should an absolute minimum of 15 years.
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Why set such an arbitrary time period? If said referendum causes economical and social destruction is it not regressive to stick to such decision? 15 years is a long time! Heck we will had about 20 different PMs in that time period the way we are going
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
In fairness to labour (who I also regard as a disappointment under starmer) the Tories would love nothing more than them to set their stall out as the remain(rejoin) party, because it would allow polarisation of politics into which they can slot their nasty immigration agenda. The electorate should of course see right through this, but aided by the Murdoch press I think they would get away with it (again). Not sure about the lib Dems nowadays - a load of fannies last time I looked, and I gave up on them after they waived through austerity in the coalition govt.
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Rejoin shouldn't be talked about as though it's the same thing as remain because it isn't. It's different to say that people want to rejoin to remain vs rejoin in a new guise which is now the reality of rejoin. Of course people may now think it was a mistake but it's too late and we'll never get what we had back.

The reality is that rejoin would mean we join as a new EU country and the starter for 10 for the EU will always be deep UK integration and taking the Euro, both major red lines with the public. What we had previously wasn't given to us, it took years of difficult negotiation with the EU. We had to negotiate an opt-out of the Euro for example but our main bargaining chip was that we were in the club already.

We now aren't in the club so everything that preceded before is irrelevant, the EU is not going to accept a UK position in the EU which is the UK made a mistake and is allowed back in as though nothing ever happened. There are certain aspects of UK membership that the EU never approved of and rejoin would be an opportunity for them to get rid of those things for good.

The one thing constantly missed is the compromise options which were never properly discussed during the leave negotiations. Why can't we for example just forget EU membership and negotiate alignment to get what we need which is single market access (EFTA?). The most critical failure of Brexit is not Brexit, it has been the consistent failure to meet in the middle and to appraise all available options.
 
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