How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[halfcenturyup]

The Trump threat to NATO may dissipate and Russia may come to its senses, but I suspect all those who feared an EU army as part of staying in the EU may come to think it's not such a bad idea if we can't rely on the USA.

Tbf, a single EU army incorporating the UKAF was never going to fly in the UK.

 

[burning blue soul]

It is. of course, much more complicated than that. Not everything is the fault of Brexit. Hell, even Brexit wasn't the fault of Brexit. It was just political incompetence, pure and simple. No problem having a vote on it, but an enormously serious political and economic change with inevitable decades-long economic consequences should never have been decided on the basis of a simple majority. Even the PL aren't stupid enough to do that.

They may have thought they were going to win, but for God's sake they should have taken it more seriously. I mean, think of the children .... it was always going to be extraordinarily destabilising. So people just have to suck it up and wait for the economic consequences to settle sometime in the next two decades. Resolve the Brexit mess? As you say: hard work and hard decisions.

All correct. I would say that the anger seen by the rioters was manifest by the ludicrous promises made by the vote leave mob.
They fell hard for the bullshit. When these lies failed to be made true it was inevitable something would trigger their ire.
A plethora of other reasons can also be added to the cause of the disorder, but masses lied to never ends well.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

All correct. I would say that the anger seen by the rioters was manifest by the ludicrous promises made by the vote leave mob.
They fell hard for the bullshit. When these lies failed to be made true it was inevitable something would trigger their ire.
A plethora of other reasons can also be added to the cause of the disorder, but masses lied to never ends well.

We have rioters over here too or should I say protests that up until recently have been peaceful, being seemingly infiltrated by right wing groups and arsonists and violent clashes with the Gardai.
Most notably in Coolock, North Dublin, a mile up the road from me.

The thing about these protests are that like you allude to, people have genuine grievances, or feel they were lied to in your examples.
Certainly the public housing situation is grim over here and young couples struggling to get their foot on the property ladder really do find it difficult to obtain a mortgage.
However, like I’ve tried to discuss many a time with certain individuals I work with, there are problems with certain aspects of governance and within the system itself, but what right wing groups do, for their own end, I believe, is find an easy target.
They Spread lies and misinformation about what and who is to blame. They make scape goats of immigrants, all immigrants. Particularly those that don’t look like you.
They don’t offer solutions to the problems. They just issue blame.

We definitely have problems over here with homelessness. I pass it in the centre of the city everyday on the way to work.
Tent villages were starting to pop up and I could be walking past dead bodies sleeping in doorways each morning without knowing.

That’s modern Dublin. There are problems.
Putting it down to someone seeking asylum from something worse, is weak and ignorant and unfortunately insular too. And we have a lot of that over here.

Unfortunately these are global problems and saying all our woes are due to illegal immigration and they’ll go away once we get rid of the foreigners is incredibly naive, in my book.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Mods if you want to move the above to the Irish Current Affairs thread, fire ahead.

 

[Vic]

Tbf, a single EU army incorporating the UKAF was never going to fly in the UK.

UKAF???

RAF?

 

[inchy14]

Politically we are reaping the seeds sown back during the debates and vote to leave.

I didn't see the wood for the trees and anyone honest should say the same thing.

Totally agree and in the same position, regret it massively and would undo it in a heartbeat.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Tbf, a single EU army incorporating the UKAF was never going to fly in the UK.

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

The price to be paid for rejoining the EU being losing the pound and joining up to a pan-European military would be absolutely fucking hilarious.

 

[Blue Maverick]

UKAF???

RAF?

U.K. armed forces I think he means

 

[BigJoe#1]

The price to be paid for rejoining the EU being losing the pound and joining up to a pan-European military would be absolutely fucking hilarious. Disastrous

 

[Vic]

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

How can it be politically difficult to admit the obvious?

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

How can it be politically difficult to admit the obvious?

It's well proven voters like it when you tell them what they want to hear.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

It is. of course, much more complicated than that. Not everything is the fault of Brexit. Hell, even Brexit wasn't the fault of Brexit. It was just political incompetence, pure and simple. No problem having a vote on it, but an enormously serious political and economic change with inevitable decades-long economic consequences should never have been decided on the basis of a simple majority. Even the PL aren't stupid enough to do that.

They may have thought they were going to win, but for God's sake they should have taken it more seriously. I mean, think of the children .... it was always going to be extraordinarily destabilising. So people just have to suck it up and wait for the economic consequences to settle sometime in the next two decades. Resolve the Brexit mess? As you say: hard work and hard decisions.

They didnt expect to win as shown by the way Johnson and Gove shat themselves when it turned out they had. Youre right about the rest. They didnt plan because they had no plan, they were just stirring shit. And then we got this self inflicted wound as a consequence.

 

[halfcenturyup]

UKAF???

RAF?

UK Armed Forces? Is that a thing?

Edit: Probably not a great acronym in hindsight, but it was late and I was too tired to type it all out :)

 

[halfcenturyup]

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

I suppose the question is whether it needs to be fully integrated or whether it could be something like a scaled down NATO without the US. UEFA or the ESL, I guess. If it's NATO-light, Brexit is irrelevant.

And you forgot Russia? If it wasn't for Russia, Europe wouldn't be scrambling around worrying about Trump/NATO in the first place.

 

[Vic]

I suppose the question is whether it needs to be fully integrated or whether it could be something like a scaled down NATO without the US. UEFA or the ESL, I guess. If it's NATO-light, Brexit is irrelevant.

And you forgot Russia? If it wasn't for Russia, Europe wouldn't be scrambling around worrying about Trump/NATO in the first place.

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

 

[halfcenturyup]

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

If Europe had any sense, yes. Strategically, what sense does it make to basically outsource your defence to what, hopefully, will be an economic competitor at some stage. Much more reason why Europe should be worried about Russia than China in military terms. Even when Putin is gone, and hopefully replaced with a reformist, you wouldn't bet against another lunatic rising up in the future.

 

[Vic]

If Europe had any sense, yes. Strategically, what sense does it make to basically outsource your defence to what, hopefully, will be an economic competitor at some stage. Much more reason why Europe should be worried about Russia than China in military terms. Even when Putin is gone, and hopefully replaced with a reformist, you wouldn't bet against another lunatic rising up in the future.

That's happened here, and in America.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

Have you not been worried about them since the invasion? Will Europe not support Ukraine without US leadership?

Will NATO, sans US, really engage in WWIII over the Baltics?

Personally, I think (and I think Putin thinks), that liberal European democracies have zero appetite for war and would be unwilling to do what was necessary if Russia walked into the Baltics. Accordingly, if he can raze most of Ukraine, he has a pre-death window of opportunity we can not allow…with or without US assistance.

Lastly, I’m not convinced Trump could get the U.S. out of NATO, politically or logistically, even if he tried. Four years isn’t enough time to unwind a relationship that involves nukes, bases, ports, and the manpower that would have to be moved. If the U.S. is good at anything, gridlock is a speciality!

All that said, Trump must be stopped at all cost.

 

[halfcenturyup]

That's happened here, and in America.

Probably. Which bit?