How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Rascal]

You are one of the few people I have seen to make an articulate, reasoned and compassionate case for brexit.

However, I don't think your position is realistic nor do you have the vehicle, culture or even politican to execute it. Taking a wrecking ball to capitalism is not difficult, any number of countries have done it. The question is what do replace it with and how do you get there? Even if this fairer way of the world needs brexit, how many years are willing to wait for it, what level of collateral/ economic damage is acceptable? 10 years as the worse performing of the G7, 20 years? Where is your threshold? Your wish to move Britain from a largely Conservative country to a more left social democratic institution, for instance say like Scandinavia, Portugal? Forgive me if I have your point of view wrong but that is how it reads to me.

The gamble required is huge and once the dust settles on that Chaos, it is highly likely you end up worse off. As mentioned before, I don't see any politican that espouses the views you have, which is a shame as they come across as far more sincere than the rubbish of farage and Rees Mogg. A more realistic way in my opinion, is incremental changes within the superstructure of the EU. Slowly making things better without violently destroying the economic position of a country.

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say so.

I did not vote in the referendum mainly because what I wanted was not extolled by either side of the argument. I would have voted remain if they had a vision beyond continuation of the status quo. My actual view at the time was we needed more EU integration, we needed a United States of Europe with an elected President and a properly elected fully functioning parliament, EU wide political parties and a system of devolved regional parliaments. I wanted fully integrated EU armed forces, the UK using the Euro etc as that was a way I believed we could achieve a Democratic Socialist or at least a Social Democratic Europe that relieved us from the hegemony of Southern England dominated Conservatism. Of course a United States of Europe could be a Conservative or right leaning government as well but more Merkel than Johnson.

As that did not come to pass, I came to see leave as the only way to escape the capitalist system we have at the moment.

Unfortunately, I think we are far further down the road to becoming another Argentina economically then Scandinavia.

As true as that may be, in my mind the lack of vision showed by the remain camp has to shoulder as much blame as the ERG nutjobs.

 

[Rascal]

Actually, that's not the way I read his interesting post. From the point of view of the hegemonic capitalist model that determines the concrete conditions of people's lives to a great degree (and which seems to be the only game in town), it changes very little whether the U.K. are in or out of the EU. Well, there are real differences, but the bedrock of people's lives remains the same. That is what I understood him to be saying.
That's why the old Gaitskellite hostility to Europe (which continued and continues to have an afterlife more or less inertly within the Labour party) was, in my view, misguided from the very first.
Am I reading you wrong, @Rascal?

That is pretty much the crux of it yes. We have varying degrees of capitalism on offer and nothing else.

 

[Rascal]

It takes some contortionism for those to clain they voted for Brexit because they thought somebody different would be be implementing it, that was a unicorn quality fantasy. Then have the nerve to blame those that saw what was coming that voted remain for not getting the 'right' Brexit. If you voted for Brexit this is the Brexit you voted for it was the Brexit it was aways going to be,. You messed up at least have the bollocks to admit it like one or two have.

As I didn't vote leave I assume this is not aimed at me. If it was then I was just suggesting scenario's where things could have been very different if it was not for the obstructionism of those who lost a vote and were not prepared to accept a democratic mandate. The Brexit we have is a disaster, but it need not have been that way.

 

[blueparrot]

As I didn't vote leave I assume this is not aimed at me. If it was then I was just suggesting scenario's where things could have been very different if it was not for the obstructionism of those who lost a vote and were not prepared to accept a democratic mandate. The Brexit we have is a disaster, but it need not have been that way.

It isn't aimed at anyone, it's something I've noticed not just in here by a couple but out in the real world. I agree there was an opportunity for opposition parties to force through a better Brexit, and will be again. However it wouldnt be and won't be and will never be the Brexit some are saying they thought they might get when they voted.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say so.

I did not vote in the referendum mainly because what I wanted was not extolled by either side of the argument. I would have voted remain if they had a vision beyond continuation of the status quo. My actual view at the time was we needed more EU integration, we needed a United States of Europe with an elected President and a properly elected fully functioning parliament, EU wide political parties and a system of devolved regional parliaments. I wanted fully integrated EU armed forces, the UK using the Euro etc as that was a way I believed we could achieve a Democratic Socialist or at least a Social Democratic Europe that relieved us from the hegemony of Southern England dominated Conservatism. Of course a United States of Europe could be a Conservative or right leaning government as well but more Merkel than Johnson.

As that did not come to pass, I came to see leave as the only way to escape the capitalist system we have at the moment.

As true as that may be, in my mind the lack of vision showed by the remain camp has to shoulder as much blame as the ERG nutjobs.

Thats a really good post mate.

 

[Rascal]

It isn't aimed at anyone, it's something I've noticed not just in here by a couple but out in the real world. I agree there was an opportunity for opposition parties to force through a better Brexit, and will be again. However it wouldnt be and won't be and will never be the Brexit some are saying they thought they might get when they voted.

One of the Ironies of Brexit is people voted for/supported things they realistically should not.

The EU is neo-liberalism incarnate, its the largest free market on the planet, yet the party of Thatcher and laissez faire on the whole voted for/supported leaving. The party traditionally associated with collectivism on the whole voted for/supported remain. That is possibly why a Brexit that satisfies is unachievable, the politics of it is upside down.

 

[BrianW]

Before you can have any kind of 'socialism' you have to shift the political axis of this country very, very significantly. As I mentioned above, we are far more likely to be ruled by libertarian nutters than any kind of socialist over the next 20 years. (I do not count Starmer and the present Labour Party as socialists. They are, roughly Macmillan Tories, and that demonstrates how far right this country has drifted.)

I have put my cards on the table. I am a 'Scandinavian Capitalist'. In the UK in 2023, this is a far-left position when compared to Labour. It will take some getting there, but I honestly believe it's the best deal ordinary people in this country can hope to get.

Some idealistic, Socialist paradise is just not going to happen. For starters, there is no political movement to achieve it. Second, there is no evidence the bulk of the people wants it - most are quite happy to be bourgeois. Ask your local plumber if he wants to pay more tax for the good of the collective! Third, there is no figure in current politics who could conceivably lead such a project.

The only 'socialist' argument for leaving the EU is that the process would cause such disaster and discontent that it would lead to revolution. And that might just happen. But it's as likely to be a fascist/nativist revolution as a socialist one. Revolutions are damn chancy things. You never know who will end up in a tumbril. It might be you, either for being too radical or not radical enough. Ask Trotsky. Ask Maximilian Robespierre. I don't believe such disruption is in the public interest. But then I would not willingly starve children to provoke a political backlash. I am not that ruthless. Some are.

 

[laserblue]

8 claims about Brexit which have proved totally untrue. Yet the liars like Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg are still in denial.

Eight claims about Brexit which have proved totally untrue

Brexit campaigners made many promises that have not worked out that way

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[Palerider]

It takes some contortionism for those to clain they voted for Brexit because they thought somebody different would be be implementing it, that was a unicorn quality fantasy. Then have the nerve to blame those that saw what was coming that voted remain for not getting the 'right' Brexit. If you voted for Brexit this is the Brexit you voted for it was the Brexit it was aways going to be,. You messed up at least have the bollocks to admit it like one or two have.

Can't let this one go.
First, I'll answer your question, I voted Brexit and take full responsibility for that vote. I don't regret it at all for reasons previously explained. Now some points.
1) We have a representative democracy. Somebody else really does implement it? For instance, in my case I voted 'Leave' in the referendum of 2016 and Labour in 2019 and as far as I know that was it
2) In a democracy, it is expected that the 'losers' accept the result and move on. So, for instance, although most of us (well none of us really) voted Sunak Prime Minister, he is OUR Prime Minister. Democracy cannot function if the 'losers' do not accept that they did not win the vote. What happened after the referendum was that many remainers, and it was remainers, were crying for another vote. Now I'm sure that in your own mind another vote was justified but put yourself in the shoes of a Leaver, you were trying to annul our votes. You were trying to steal our winning votes away from us and got told to 'go and Fuck yourselves'. From that point on, the Remain backers (or vote stealers) were quite justifiably not trusted. The result was that many Leave voters, myself included, were prepared to accept Leave on any terms rather than let the would be vote stealing cunts win. So, and I hope you really, really do feel my utter contempt for any **** that wanted to annul my vote, but those cunts pushed this rather soft brexit supporter into a brexit at any costs position.
3) Nobody has messed up at all. It's very, very early days. Most economic commentators hardly mention Brexit, with Covid and the Ukraine given as far, far more important factors in our current economic troubles. Similar to the rest of Europe.
4) And finally the magic number 4. In 2016 the referendum was won by 4% 52/48. We had all sorts of mathematic genius's telling us that 4% was nothing, it represented a difference of 10 pensioners who, by now, have probably died. We needed to have another vote. By 2023, we must have moved into a new dimension, because the loss of 4% GDP is absolute proof of the greatest catastrophe to strike planet earth.

 

[blueparrot]

Can't let this one go.
First, I'll answer your question, I voted Brexit and take full responsibility for that vote. I don't regret it at all for reasons previously explained. Now some points.
1) We have a representative democracy. Somebody else really does implement it? For instance, in my case I voted 'Leave' in the referendum of 2016 and Labour in 2019 and as far as I know that was it
2) In a democracy, it is expected that the 'losers' accept the result and move on. So, for instance, although most of us (well none of us really) voted Sunak Prime Minister, he is OUR Prime Minister. Democracy cannot function if the 'losers' do not accept that they did not win the vote. What happened after the referendum was that many remainers, and it was remainers, were crying for another vote. Now I'm sure that in your own mind another vote was justified but put yourself in the shoes of a Leaver, you were trying to annul our votes. You were trying to steal our winning votes away from us and got told to 'go and Fuck yourselves'. From that point on, the Remain backers (or vote stealers) were quite justifiably not trusted. The result was that many Leave voters, myself included, were prepared to accept Leave on any terms rather than let the would be vote stealing cunts win. So, and I hope you really, really do feel my utter contempt for any **** that wanted to annul my vote, but those cunts pushed this rather soft brexit supporter into a brexit at any costs position.
3) Nobody has messed up at all. It's very, very early days. Most economic commentators hardly mention Brexit, with Covid and the Ukraine given as far, far more important factors in our current economic troubles. Similar to the rest of Europe.
4) And finally the magic number 4. In 2016 the referendum was won by 4% 52/48. We had all sorts of mathematic genius's telling us that 4% was nothing, it represented a difference of 10 pensioners who, by now, have probably died. We needed to have another vote. By 2023, we must have moved into a new dimension, because the loss of 4% GDP is absolute proof of the greatest catastrophe to strike planet earth.

2 . There is no acceptance at all that those losing a vote accept the result and move on. Losers accept the result,yes,but there is nothing to stop them then campaigning to overturn the result or change the implementation of that result, in fact they shouldn’t. That is the whole basis of democracy.
If it had gone the other way would Farage or the anti EU lobby have moved on.

3 Yes they have made a mess of brexit, thats why they are still trying to renegotiate the Irish protocol which they knew when they signed it was Unworkable even before they signed it. Thats why many industries, sectors and services and individual businesses are struggling with it.Because it was Brexit at any cost and an ideological not pragmatic and those costs are high for many individuals.

4 As far as I can tell most aren’t asking for another referendum though I reckon it would go the other way. All most are asking for is a better Brexit that works for everyone. Why would you not want that ?

 

[Gingers Dad]

I voted Leave and would do so again but I would have accepted a Remain 'win' without all this constant whining. So can I ask all the 'pissed off' Remainers how exactly leaving the EU has affected you personally. A top Ten list of what you, personally, are missing? I'm trying to understand why you are so pissed off, what are you missing? I'd prefer factual reasons, (colour of passports?) rather than personal preference but accept that feelings and emotions are also important.

One of my sons wanted to study in Europe as part of his degree. It would have cost £1k in study fees when we were in the EU. Cost is now over £9k and not eligible under the student loans scheme. Totally unaffordable to us as a family.
Can I ask what you feel you've gained personally from us leaving the EU? So when I say personally I don't mean that "Taking back control bollocks " or sovereignty.

 

[Gingers Dad]

The idea that the NHS and social care has collapsed because of brexit is ludicrous. I'm 64 and everything is affected by inflation but inflation tends to go up every year whether we are in the EU or not. So why has the part of inflation caused by brexit so different to inflation caused by any other government decision. What I am trying to understand is why the vitriol?

A baby boomer, I should have guessed. The generation that has had it all and still wants more.

 

[Palerider]

2 . There is no acceptance at all that those losing a vote accept the result and move on. Losers accept the result,yes,but there is nothing to stop them then campaigning to overturn the result or change the implementation of that result, in fact they shouldn’t. That is the whole basis of democracy.
If it had gone the other way would Farage or the anti EU lobby have moved on.

3 Yes they have made a mess of brexit, thats why they are still trying to renegotiate the Irish protocol which they knew when they signed it was Unworkable even before they signed it. Thats why many industries, sectors and services and individual businesses are struggling with it.Because it was Brexit at any cost and an ideological not pragmatic and those costs are high for many individuals.

4 As far as I can tell most aren’t asking for another referendum though I reckon it would go the other way. All most are asking for is a better Brexit that works for everyone. Why would you not want that ?

2. I fully accept that a Rejoin campaign is fine. That's what should have happened in the first place, not a divisive attempt to overthrow a referendum result. What we have at the moment is many Remainers seem obsessed with being proven right.
3. Northern Ireland can only be solved by the Irish and nobody has the answer, so no change there at all. I'm going to use the phrase 'teething problems'. The EU countries and the UK are all capitalist countries and will put money above morals when things settle down.
4. I think another referendum would go the other way too but I would accept that result without constant whinging. I thought May's deal was as good a compromise as possible but it was rejected by both sides. Believe me I'm a reasonable person and want a Brexit that works for everyone, doesn't everybody?

 

[blueparrot]

2. I fully accept that a Rejoin campaign is fine. That's what should have happened in the first place, not a divisive attempt to overthrow a referendum result. What we have at the moment is many Remainers seem obsessed with being proven right.
3. Northern Ireland can only be solved by the Irish and nobody has the answer, so no change there at all. I'm going to use the phrase 'teething problems'. The EU countries and the UK are all capitalist countries and will put money above morals when things settle down.
4. I think another referendum would go the other way too but I would accept that result without constant whinging. I thought May's deal was as good a compromise as possible but it was rejected by both sides. Believe me I'm a reasonable person and want a Brexit that works for everyone, doesn't everybody?

So what is you solution to this Brexit, I can give you one that I think solves almost all the problems including Ireland, may even stop the UK breaking up.
What is your solution, oh the Irish problem was created by the UK government protocol fuck up and they must fix it, so no it isn’t an Irish problem it’s a Westminster problem.
But what do you suggest would help make Brexit work for everyone ?

 

[Palerider]

A baby boomer, I should have guessed. The generation that has had it all and still wants more.

I was born at home in a two bedroomed terrace with no bathroom. My brother, who I shared a bed with says that we used to lay in bed looking at the stars because there was holes in the ceiling and roof. I have never in my life had my own room. My first holiday was when I was 15 years old, caravan in Rhyl. I played for the school team but the school and parents were so poor we didn't have a kit. I used my uncles work socks as football socks. My mum was so stressed she had multiple breakdowns and was in and out of Springfield my entire childhood. By age 7 I was very independent and would catch trains from Victoria to Heaton Park, actually do the weekly shop (not from a list), I shopped. My mum finally succumbed to her mental demons when I was 14 and died. I did well at school, passed my 11 plus and went to Grammar school. I passed 8 O Levels and wanted to stay, do A levels, get a degree, get a great fulfilling job but our family finances were such that I needed to start earning. I later did get a degree through the OU after 6 years of home study. I got a decent job in the end.
Yes, I am a baby boomer. I wish your son well.

 

[Palerider]

So what is you solution to this Brexit, I can give you one that I think solves almost all the problems including Ireland, may even stop the UK breaking up.
What is your solution, oh the Irish problem was created by the UK government protocol fuck up and they must fix it, so no it isn’t an Irish problem it’s a Westminster problem.
But what do you suggest would help make Brexit work for everyone ?

I don't believe there is an answer. There is no policy or political party that will please everyone. What I believe in, is democracy. My ideal would be that everyone see's paying tax into the system as a social responsibility, that everyone is big enough to accept a Tory, Labour, Green government if elected. We need to get away from the idea that the Tories are Nazis, Corbyn's Labour were communists and the Greens are loonies. Everybody's view, however personally repugnant, should at least be heard. I believe everyone should give 100% and if you give 100% then you deserve a decent lifestyle regardless of your academic credentials.

 

[blueparrot]

I don't believe there is an answer. There is no policy or political party that will please everyone. What I believe in, is democracy. My ideal would be that everyone see's paying tax into the system as a social responsibility, that everyone is big enough to accept a Tory, Labour, Green government if elected. We need to get away from the idea that the Tories are Nazis, Corbyn's Labour were communists and the Greens are loonies. Everybody's view, however personally repugnant, should at least be heard. I believe everyone should give 100% and if you give 100% then you deserve a decent lifestyle regardless of your academic credentials.

Great but non of the has the slightest thing to do with Brexit or no Brexit.
Not sure how you can think brexit is a success when you think there is no answer to the problems it’s created, problems that didn’t exist before Brexit. Even the strongest hardline Brexit supporters in the government don’t think it’s working as it should and there is no answer to the issues.

 

[Palerider]

Great but non of the has the slightest thing to do with Brexit or no Brexit.
Not sure how you can think brexit is a success when you think there is no answer to the problems it’s created, problems that didn’t exist before Brexit. Even the strongest hardline Brexit supporters in the government don’t think it’s working as it should and there is no answer to the issues.

Not sure I called it a success, just much too early to call it a failure. I think you are overstating the problems brexit has created. With any system change there will be issues surely? They will sort themselves out eventually as people get used to new systems and improve their processes. For instance, I believe there are paperwork issues with exports. Who uses paper these days? Surely it's a business opportunity for a software house to come up with a solution. If the government think there are no solutions then they should resign enmasse and let people a bit more positive have a go.

 

[blueparrot]

Not sure I called it a success, just much too early to call it a failure. I think you are overstating the problems brexit has created. With any system change there will be issues surely? They will sort themselves out eventually as people get used to new systems and improve their processes. For instance, I believe there are paperwork issues with exports. Who uses paper these days? Surely it's a business opportunity for a software house to come up with a solution. If the government think there are no solutions then they should resign enmasse and let people a bit more positive have a go.

So thats the bottom line, you can’t list any real benefit, you accept there are issues and problems but they are a bit overstated but don’t know any fixes, and you hope for the best they will sort themselves out eventually, hardly a ringing endorsement for an expensive upheaval that has caused hardship for many.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I was born at home in a two bedroomed terrace with no bathroom. My brother, who I shared a bed with says that we used to lay in bed looking at the stars because there was holes in the ceiling and roof. I have never in my life had my own room. My first holiday was when I was 15 years old, caravan in Rhyl. I played for the school team but the school and parents were so poor we didn't have a kit. I used my uncles work socks as football socks. My mum was so stressed she had multiple breakdowns and was in and out of Springfield my entire childhood. By age 7 I was very independent and would catch trains from Victoria to Heaton Park, actually do the weekly shop (not from a list), I shopped. My mum finally succumbed to her mental demons when I was 14 and died. I did well at school, passed my 11 plus and went to Grammar school. I passed 8 O Levels and wanted to stay, do A levels, get a degree, get a great fulfilling job but our family finances were such that I needed to start earning. I later did get a degree through the OU after 6 years of home study. I got a decent job in the end.
Yes, I am a baby boomer. I wish your son well.

What baffles me is as a baby boomer why is it bad for you to "have had it all and still want more" ? Why doesn't the respondent demand even better for themselves? Thats the issue with this country - we peaked than from 1980 on there began a gradual decline which has accelerated in the last 13 years into a tumble off a cliff but still people are persuaded that YOU are the problem YOU'VE done ok rather than them asking why they worse off - much worse off than they should be but don't blame the system thats done it to them instead allow the system to persuade them that its not the system thats at fault you are to blame for their plight ...... go figure