How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[ganganvince]

Who stressed it was advisory ? It’s always been seen as mandatory unfortunately even though it was not

Widely reported at the time statement attributed to John Redwood.

 

[WRicko]

You are saying it’s increased some people’s wealth by a factor of one thousand? How has that happened exactly?

Look at what happened with crispin Odey paid Nigel UKIP 1 million to fund Brexit shorted the £ on Brexit day made a fortune. Even photo of Nigel laughing as the £ falls

Look at the strange fact that a minor Tory MP but especially Brexit one had Gold interests in Russia Russia that wanted Brexit

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I never got my head round this. When these daft cunts talked about cutting red tape, how was that going to work when selling goods to a trading block that has unified standards? It simply made no sense whatsoever.

That’s because the ‘red-tape’ that most normal people imagine is to do with trade. The political Brexiteers wet dream involved ‘red-tape‘ that meant standard. Cut product standards, cut hard won employment rights, cut wages, cut food standards, cut animal welfare standards, in fact, cut anything and everything that has a cost to their god of business and fuck the rest of us.
Sadly, they managed to convince the very people most likely affected by those cuts to vote for them which, to be fair to the Tory party, they’ve always managed to do, somehow. No wonder they want less and less education for the hoi polloi…….

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I'm baffled. Who stressed it was just advisory (before the referendum)?

To be fair I think leave voters would've been just as keen to stress it had only been advisory had they not got what they wanted from the result, and farage would've been the biggest advocate - human nature etc

 

[jim tolmies perm]

That’s because the ‘red-tape’ that most normal people imagine is to do with trade. The political Brexiteers wet dream involved ‘red-tape‘ that meant standard. Cut product standards, cut hard won employment rights, cut wages, cut food standards, cut animal welfare standards, in fact, cut anything and everything that has a cost to their god of business and fuck the rest of us.
Sadly, they managed to convince the very people most likely affected by those cuts to vote for them which, to be fair to the Tory party, they’ve always managed to do, somehow. No wonder they want less and less education for the hoi polloi…….

They've always been a "race to the bottom" party
Progression is simply not part of their DNA.They've also managed to pull "Con" trick after "Con" trick with the decent hard working British public.
A shit stain on the nation's history

 

[threespires]

I think blame lies at more doors than just Cameron's. It was the only way to get rid of UKIP/Brexit Party from the scene and keep the Tories in power, so I do understand why he went for the referendum. At least he actively supported remaining, which is more than can be said for the Labour leader. If Corbyn had been more active in the remain campaign, then perhaps the leave vote wouldn't have won, though I again understand why Corbyn did what he did. I'd say blame also lies with the leave campaign and their promises/lies/untruths.

Ultimately though the blame lies with the electorate. It was their choice to make.

Ultimately it was the electorate who put their crosses in the box marked 'national self-harm' but I think this was the logical end point of a country (not the only one) in broader democratic decline. Politics in this country has been conducted like a chimps tea party well before the vote took place. The malign influence before and after the vote of a mostly foreign owned press whose only function is to protect vested interest; the introduction of powerful new technologies that none of our legislators understand; the lack of transparency in how powerful voices are funded and the rise to positions of authority of disaster capitalists and political opportunists and finally the lack of interest in moving to a more representative voting system. I think solving the Brexit mess is (a) herculean and (b) only fixing the symptoms. Sadly I don't see any of the current crop of politicians capable of addressing the causes, all too busy kowtowing at Murdoch's parties. So in the absence of a visionary, I'd take a move to PR as a start from which we might be able to pull ourselves back up.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Look at what happened with crispin Odey paid Nigel UKIP 1 million to fund Brexit shorted the £ on Brexit day made a fortune. Even photo of Nigel laughing as the £ falls

Look at the strange fact that a minor Tory MP but especially Brexit one had Gold interests in Russia Russia that wanted Brexit

That’s not answering the question. Making a fortune isn’t the same as increasing your wealth by a factor of 1,000. I don’t doubt some people have benefitted enormously, my enquiry was about millionaires who are now billionaires.

Who are they and how did they do it?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I expect he’ll regret it deeply until his final breath.

Nah. He doesn't give a toss.

For all these public schoolboys, it's just a game, an extension of the school debating society.

Who gets to be head boy, who's the most popular.

They're totally insulated from the consequences of their actions.

Same goes for Johnson, Clegg, Rees-Mogg etc.

 

[BobKowalski]

It’s only resolved when there is the political will to resolve it and sadly it’s looking likely it will never be there for reason only the Labour Party can explain?

Just make it a manifesto promise that at a minimum, we would rejoin the single market and make it happen.

I can’t see it happening. The UK will not join the SM when it has no political say in the decision/rule making and the EU countries will not allow a non-member to have any meaningful say in the rule making.

What is more likely to happen is over the next decade we adopt by default a lot of the rules, largely because there is no real alternative. Leaving the EU economic model was one thing, but the real crime was having no alternative model to put in its place and seven years on we are still no closer to having one beyond vague promises of undefined future benefits.

The flaw in Brexit was twofold. One was the belief that the EU would cave in to whatever we wanted, and two, that the EU would unravel when countries saw you could get what you wanted without being a member or signing up to the rules. Which is precisely the reason we didn’t get what we wanted. I think our political and media class are still struggling with the reality that we couldn’t get what we wanted and were never going to get it.

The EU is also evolving and more quickly with the UK gone. The pandemic and Ukraine have accelerated this evolution. When we talk about rejoining we really mean going back to the EU and the position we had before 2016 when neither no longer exists.

We voluntarily climbed off the EU train and there is no realistic path for us to get back on. Except for NI which is still in the SM and has a potential route back to membership.

Amazing to think we willingly divided our own union for the square root of fuck all.

 

[tonyfc]

What we need:

Gunboats to deal with channel chancers

More unaffordable housing to boost the building sector

More luxury electric cars

Also more proletarian petrol cars so fuel duty can be obtained on behalf of the electric car owners

The NHS should be loaded onto a handcart to expedite the arrival to its inevitable destination

More trade deals with despots who need security

No more allowing victims to escape culpability

These might not totally untangle brexit problems but they would be a good start.

 

[WRicko]

That’s not answering the question. Making a fortune isn’t the same as increasing your wealth by a factor of 1,000. I don’t doubt some people have benefitted enormously, my enquiry was about millionaires who are now billionaires.

Who are they and how did they do it?

Didn’t think we was being that specific

 

[meltonblue]

I think it’s broken him. It’s completely ruined his legacy which was heading to be pretty decent, if not spectacular. Our standing as a nation, in early 2016, was so much higher than it is today.

He’s completely fucking blown it.

I do sometimes think about what the last few years would have been like had the brexit vote gone the other way. It’s not just about the damage it’s directly doing, it’s how much time was devoted to it in the subsequent years with everyone completely taking their eye off a shedload of domestic policy issues.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I'm baffled. Who stressed it was just advisory (before the referendum)?

Who stressed it was advisory ? It’s always been seen as mandatory unfortunately even though it was no

This is from Full Fact

Was the EU referendum “advisory”? – Full Fact

A referendum can be legally non-binding but, arguably, politically binding.

fullfact.org

The European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.


So the European Referendum Act 2015 was drafted in such a way as to make the result of the referendum ''non binding'' and as the result was close and the number of non voters approx a third of the voting population the ''politicians'' could've refused to implement.


A more sensible approach would've been to put a minimum vote requirement of say 60% of the population (the same way the unions are treated) or a requirement that all countries in the UK union would have to vote leave (but that would be possibly more divisive.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

This is from Full Fact

Was the EU referendum “advisory”? – Full Fact

A referendum can be legally non-binding but, arguably, politically binding.

fullfact.org

The European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.


So the European Referendum Act 2015 was drafted in such a way as to make the result of the referendum ''non binding'' and as the result was close and the number of non voters approx a third of the voting population the ''politicians'' could've refused to implement.


A more sensible approach would've been to put a minimum vote requirement of say 60% of the population (the same way the unions are treated) or a requirement that all countries in the UK union would have to vote leave (but that would be possibly more divisive.

I think the more sensible (and honest) approach would've been for Cameron to decide (as leader) what Tory party policy was on EU membership, face the electorate on that basis and govern accordingly. No referendum needed.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Nah. He doesn't give a toss.

For all these public schoolboys, it's just a game, an extension of the school debating society.

Who gets to be head boy, who's the most popular.

They're totally insulated from the consequences of their actions.

Same goes for Johnson, Clegg, Rees-Mogg etc.

I think you are confusing regret with contrition.

Of course he fucking regrets it. It cost him the job he’d craved his entire adult life, destroyed his legacy and irreversibly reduced his standing.

Why wouldn’t he regret it?

 

[Gremlin]

I think you are confusing regret with contrition.

Of course he fucking regrets it. It cost him the job he’d craved his entire adult life, destroyed his legacy and irreversibly reduced his standing.

Why wouldn’t he regret it?

In the same way that I doubt Boris is contrite about his actions but definitely regrets getting caught.

 

[meltonblue]

I think you are confusing regret with contrition.

Of course he fucking regrets it. It cost him the job he’d craved his entire adult life, destroyed his legacy and irreversibly reduced his standing.

Why wouldn’t he regret it?

Absolutely. He’s publicly said, and written in his autobiography, that it’s his greatest regret and he’ll keep thinking about it until the day he dies.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

In the same way that I doubt Boris is contrite about his actions but definitely regrets getting caught.

Yes, like that.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Didn’t think we was being that specific

You mean that part where he said ‘it’s made millionaires into billionaires’?

 

[Gremlin]

Absolutely. He’s publicly said, and written in his autobiography, that it’s his greatest regret and he’ll keep thinking about it until the day he dies.

He bet the farm on the Scottish Independence referendum and won. Buoyed by that he bet it again on the EU referendum, expecting to win and shut the Tory right wing up for the next few years at least. But this time he lost and we're all paying for it.