How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

gordondaviesmoustache said:
I think the reason most of us despair so much is unlike General Elections, we can’t reverse it a few years down the track. We have unilaterally decided to make ourselves poorer and more isolated - and there’s nothing that can be done to go back. We’ve inflicted a wound upon ourselves which is not going to heal for many years. And it was completely unnecessary. No-one made us do it.

This thread gives some of us an outlet to vent about all that. That has been the principal function of this thread for some time, and widely known as such. And will remain so, most likely.

I hardly talk about Brexit in the real world. I rant to my girlfriend about it once a fortnight, possibly less these days; apologise to my son whenever I see him (about once a month) and take the piss out of my Brexit voting mates (who I know can take it). Did that yesterday to someone I know who’s a judge, (unusually) a working class Tory who voted to leave. Thanked him for it and said he must be pleased with how well it’s going! He laughed and gave as much back!

Others on here live and breathe it, but I definitely don’t. But I thought it was a huge mistake and sadly I’ve been proved correct, and coming on here, into this echo chamber, gives me an outlet that prevents me being an insufferable bore about the subject in the real world. If it makes me a bore on this thread, then I’ll live with that.

We do need to move on, and make the most of it though. I fully accept that. Hopefully Starmer will be more hawkish about realigning in some ways, once elected. I think that will soothe a lot of the wounds. At least for me.
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It's an echo chamber of the proved-right but we've not got to a majority to rejoin without people discussing how crap Brexit is (with some still believing it could have worked and not accepting it was all bases on fantasy and lies). So long as there are unrepentant Leave lurkers, the work of persuasion goes on.

For a start, nearly everyone now understands why Starmer has ruled out rejoining. Getting all the other EU members to have us back just looks a non-starter. But not diverging more from EU regs, and rejoining scientific ventures etc are obvious ways to stop the damage being worse.
 
KPXBLN said:
To be fair, if these idiots (the Brexit voters who had the house in Italy) had been properly living in Italy - registered address there, paying whatever taxes and social security obligations applied to them etc - before Brexit actually finally happened, they would have been able to stay without getting citizenship. This is the position I’m in in Germany- I have a (renewable) 10 year residence permit. I haven’t read the article but I’m guessing their problem is they thought they could move to Italy to retire after Brexit and found themselves liable to get a visa which they are not rich/high-skilled/young enough to qualify for.
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This is not quite the reality. Italy are rather “flexible”. I have a friend who has a holiday home in Italy. Spends 6 months a year there minimum. They quite happily gave her residence so she can freely move and stay in Europe as much as she wants. She remains a tax resident of the U.K.
looks like the people referred to in the previous post didn’t do due diligence. The income requirements are quite clear and easily found.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Guinness. €5.50 a pint in Duggans of Parkgate Street last night.

Not bad at all.

I was in England this month and didn’t get a pint for that price.
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Not bad for Dublin. €5.20 generally in killarney, cheaper the further south and west you go. A good few holding off on reaching €5, one place on the ring is €4.99 :).
Was in the hideaway before the semi final and I think it was €6 there(wasn't drinking myself but cousins were) they were quite happy with that so close to Croker.
 
Vic said:
For a start, nearly everyone now understands why Starmer has ruled out rejoining. Getting all the other EU members to have us back just looks a non-starter.
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Absolutely a non-starter, we had 5 years of this shite already in the last 7, we're all sick of it and there's far more important issues facing the EU and the wider world than trade relations with the UK.
 
KPXBLN said:
To be fair, if these idiots (the Brexit voters who had the house in Italy) had been properly living in Italy - registered address there, paying whatever taxes and social security obligations applied to them etc - before Brexit actually finally happened, they would have been able to stay without getting citizenship. This is the position I’m in in Germany- I have a (renewable) 10 year residence permit. I haven’t read the article but I’m guessing their problem is they thought they could move to Italy to retire after Brexit and found themselves liable to get a visa which they are not rich/high-skilled/young enough to qualify for.
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they say in the interview in the article that they were told and believed nothing would change after Brexit - ie THEY would retain FoM just that nobody else would. As is said elsewhere they did not do due diligence
 
denislawsbackheel said:
This is not quite the reality. Italy are rather “flexible”. I have a friend who has a holiday home in Italy. Spends 6 months a year there minimum. They quite happily gave her residence so she can freely move and stay in Europe as much as she wants. She remains a tax resident of the U.K.
looks like the people referred to in the previous post didn’t do due diligence. The income requirements are quite clear and easily found.
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Not sure this necessarily contradicts what I said. The basic substance of the eventual brexit deal was that existing legal residents - in either direction - could stay on after brexit. If there are other provisions also available in some EU countries that’s a bit different. My point was that this couple could have lived in their house in Italy if they had been living there before 2020. It wasn’t about getting citizenship as someone I was replying to above put it. Anyway, as you say, they didn’t do their homework (like most people who voted for Brexit)
 
KPXBLN said:
Not sure this necessarily contradicts what I said. The basic substance of the eventual brexit deal was that existing legal residents - in either direction - could stay on after brexit. If there are other provisions also available in some EU countries that’s a bit different. My point was that this couple could have lived in their house in Italy if they had been living there before 2020. It wasn’t about getting citizenship as someone I was replying to above put it. Anyway, as you say, they didn’t do their homework (like most people who voted for Brexit)
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My friend is not a resident though. She winters in Italy that’s all, but has wangled a residency permit out of them that lets her use EU gates at borders.
You are right about The couple, they could have stayed if they had been permanent residents as of January 2021 without there being a need to have £30K plus annual income and they could have been entitled to Italian health services which they won’t now until they become residents. Citizenship is not a requirement to settle anywhere in the EU.
It strikes me as odd though that different EU countries apply the right to stay differently. For instance It is much easier to stay in Italy and eventually earn the right to remain than it is in France.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
Hang on, I though they need us more than we need them…
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We're definitely worse off without the UK in terms of global influence, overall wealth and diversity of opinion. But not everybody sees it as an overall loss (especially the underlined part) and very few see a reversal as worth it. Especially when there's a lack of trust in the UK's commitment to any position it takes.
 
NPBlue said:
EFTA is off the table. The EU have stated it's not an option.

It's full membership or nothing.

The EU have offered us options to ease trade like the Pan Mediterranean Convention, but the government turned it down.

Our days of negotiating opt outs are gone. If we rejoin, it will be on their terms.
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This is just plainly untrue, the EU is not EFTA and EFTA is not the EU. EFTA is however a bloc that has a very close relationship with the EU. Joining EFTA would require negotiation and it would become a decision for the EFTA members and not the EU. However, there would probably have to be a subsequent renegotiation of the EU-EFTA relationship.

I'm not saying that EFTA is the answer because even EFTA brings many questions of its own but it's just one potential solution amongst many. If we joined Schengen as part of it then it would instantly resolve some parts of the Irish question too.

The whole thing needs a sensible discussion and an acceptance of the reality which is that we're out and that's unfortunately where we are. The alternative is to follow those on here who are moaning about the country burning down but are also still arguing about whether we should have left or not, it's ultimately pointless and boring.

500px-Supranational_European_Bodies.svg.png
 
inbetween said:
This is just plainly untrue, the EU is not EFTA and EFTA is not the EU. EFTA is however a bloc that has a very close relationship with the EU. Joining EFTA would require negotiation and it would become a decision for the EFTA members and not the EU. However, there would probably have to be a subsequent renegotiation of the EU-EFTA relationship.

I'm not saying that EFTA is the answer because even EFTA brings many questions of its own but it's just one potential solution amongst many. If we joined Schengen as part of it then it would instantly resolve some parts of the Irish question too.

The whole thing needs a sensible discussion and an acceptance of the reality which is that we're out and that's unfortunately where we are. The alternative is to follow those on here who are moaning about the country burning down but are also still arguing about whether we should have left or not, it's ultimately pointless and boring.

500px-Supranational_European_Bodies.svg.png
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Yes it's much better to imagine alternative historical events that will never happen.

EFTA don't want us, we previously left it to join the EU. You've just pointed out why it isn't possible.

Are you Richard Rice or Nigel Farage?
 
inbetween said:
This is just plainly untrue, the EU is not EFTA and EFTA is not the EU. EFTA is however a bloc that has a very close relationship with the EU. Joining EFTA would require negotiation and it would become a decision for the EFTA members and not the EU. However, there would probably have to be a subsequent renegotiation of the EU-EFTA relationship.

I'm not saying that EFTA is the answer because even EFTA brings many questions of its own but it's just one potential solution amongst many. If we joined Schengen as part of it then it would instantly resolve some parts of the Irish question too.

The whole thing needs a sensible discussion and an acceptance of the reality which is that we're out and that's unfortunately where we are. The alternative is to follow those on here who are moaning about the country burning down but are also still arguing about whether we should have left or not, it's ultimately pointless and boring.

500px-Supranational_European_Bodies.svg.png
Click to expand...

The only issue is the EFTA countries don't want us to join as the size of our economy dwarfs any one of theirs and for some reason they think we may act like exceptionalist bullies and use that weight to start changing things to suit ourselves when they are quite happy with the status quo.
Maybe once Brexit has run its course and decimated our economy we may be small enough for them to consider allowing joining.
 
bluethrunthru said:
they say in the interview in the article that they were told and believed nothing would change after Brexit - ie THEY would retain FoM just that nobody else would. As is said elsewhere they did not do due diligence
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It’s actually insane that anyone would actually think that.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Not bad for Dublin. €5.20 generally in killarney, cheaper the further south and west you go. A good few holding off on reaching €5, one place on the ring is €4.99 :).
Was in the hideaway before the semi final and I think it was €6 there(wasn't drinking myself but cousins were) they were quite happy with that so close to Croker.
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€5.70 in Fagan's where Bertie drinks.
€5.25 for pensioners.
Just saying!
 
bluethrunthru said:
The only issue is the EFTA countries don't want us to join as the size of our economy dwarfs any one of theirs and for some reason they think we may act like exceptionalist bullies and use that weight to start changing things to suit ourselves when they are quite happy with the status quo.
Maybe once Brexit has run its course and decimated our economy we may be small enough for them to consider allowing joining.
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You can only hope.
Remain positive lad.
 
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