How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[GortonBlue62]

The trouble with Lexit is that no one who advocated ever had the power to implement it.

So it was always a daft idea.

We all understand sovereignty. The fact that we were able to leave without asking permission proves that we always had it.

But sovereignty isn't unlimited in the real world, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell agreed on this very simple point the first time there was a referendum on this issue.

Absolute sovereignty is no more a real concept than absolute self sufficiency. Even if you live off of the land, you'll need someone to make your tools, dig up the metal for it or give you the eggs that hatch into your chickens etc.

If you think you will win the battle against capitalism in your lifetime you must be smoking something strong.

I voted to leave the EU so that we could engage more fully with the wider world.

Sovereignty in your definition seems to be about pulling up the drawbridge and not engaging with the rest of the world.

Sovereignty in my definition is about having the ability to set your own path. It's about engaging with the wider world, both culturally and economically. It's about breaking down trade barriers and embracing capitalism and globalisation.

Societies that close themselves off are doomed to fail. The EU with it's protectionist economic policies and its excessive application of the precautionary principle, to name but two of its many failings, is the best example of a failing 'state'.

The UK's success in the years ahead will depend on which politicians can take the opportunities Brexit offers. Unfortunately the current crop seem to be fucking useless so I'm not too optimistic. But Brexit is an opportunity and we're never rejoining the EU so maybe remoaners need to accept they lost and just get on with it?

 

[The perfect fumble]

If you think you will win the battle against capitalism in your lifetime you must be smoking something strong.

I'll just leave this here...

I want to rejoin the EU, but when we do, as we surely will, we'll rejoin an organisation that will once again cement a particular form of corporate capitalism in to the very fabric of the UK

 

[BrianW]

Both right and left-wing critics of the EU make the classic error of imagining the world as they would like it to be and not as it is.

In reality, the business of politics ought to be to get the best possible deal for the country and its people. It's no use dreaming of Camelot, we can never have it. Engaging with the wider world is actually better done via the medium of the EU as the sad reality is that most of the wider world hates the UK's guts. The idea that they are all falling over themselves to give us advantageous trade deals is laughable and demonstrably wrong. New Zealand has given the EU a better trade deal than it has us for the simple reason that the EU is a much more attractive trade partner.

Concepts like 'sovereignty' are just verbiage. The equivalent of medieval scholars debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. I don't give a rap for it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

EU law is made by the Commision. The Parliament and the Council of Ministers can modify or even reject the laws that emanate from the Commission but they rarely do.

The European Parliament is a Parliament in name only. Its members are not legislators.

The Commission meets in secret and all it's machinations are confidential. Commissioners are appointed not elected, they are therefore unaccountable.

The House of Commons publicly tore itself to shreds in the weeks leading up to the 2019 election. The British electorate delivered its judgement in the election. Democracy in action.

Two examples of UK commissioners. Neil Kinnock lost the 1992 election after 13 years of Conservative government; the British electorate decided they didn't want him anywhere near the levers of power. He was then appointed to the EU Commission where he made laws affecting UK citizens. When he was finished in Brussels he was appointed to the House of Lords which must surely be every Democrats next target. Peter Mandelson was forced to resign from Blair's government; basically here's a guy who isn't fit to hold high office. Same career path as Kinnock, EU Commission and then the House of Lords.

Both Kinnock and Mandelson fail Tony Benn's test - when you meet someone in a position of power ask them two questions - How did you get there? and How xan we get rid of you? MPs are elected and general elections and sometimes public opinion can remove them.

If as a UK citizen you fell foul of EU law there would have been no point going to your MEP to complain because he or she didn't make the law. How about going to the relevant Commissioner? That's no good because commissioners are appointed not elected they don't need your vote so they are accountable to no one.

Compare that to UK law. If a law is unfair, and they often are as it's difficult to frame good legislation, you go to your MP's constituency surgery and raise the issue. If you have a case the issue can be raised in Parliament and the law can be changed. MPs do this not because they are better people than MEPs but because they are accountable to the people they serve. Again it's called democracy.

On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).

well the fact that they occasionally do modify and reject laws from the Commission rather makes my point. As I said The Commissioners are appointed but have to be ratified by a majority of MEP's ( you know the ones who are elected in the EU elections ).

The Commission is so secret they publish quarterly reports on what they have been dealing with. Proper espionage/conspiracy theory.

Dragging dubious personal dislikes of politicians in and how they progressed through legislatures is pointless. We can trade examples that prove nothing other than politicians do politics.

Its funny that coz when we were in the EU MEP's did assist constituents - even the fuckwit Dorries could see that where we are now leaves us outside the EU looking in following rules with no influence on them.

As ever Brexiteers can never really be specific on EU laws coz they followed the rants of Farage without asking what laws. Interesting you come down on CAP - because famously now we are no longer in it we are giving away our sheep farming and grain farming a veterinary control at the borders in exchange for the cheapest - sorry dearest - food in Europe - Jesus even Lidl trainers are back in store costing £15 when they used to be a tenner - you will need to take that up with Reet-Smug though coz he lied to you about cheap trainers too.

 

[bluethrunthru]

New Zealand has given the EU a better trade deal than it has us for the simple reason that the EU is a much more attractive trade partner.

Also we had already given NZ what they wanted - our sheep farming - they got that for free - we can send them what? What do they need off us?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I'll just leave this here...

Which is no worse than current form of capitalism we have in the UK.

If anything it's actually preferable to the low wage, low investment, low growth model we have currently.

The Lexit argument was always daft because they were willing to hand over the keys to people who were even more corrupt, less accountable and less interested in public service than the eurocrats.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Bless Paul and Wendy - Paul still needs to believe as he sits there with a full bladder on a sweaty coach

Daily Mail climbdown on Brexit border chaos says it all

Brits have pledged never to go through the port of Dover again after long queues at customs made the journey intolerable.

www.thelondoneconomic.com

 

[roubaixtuesday]

It hasn't turned out to be a steaming turd. The big impacts to the British economy have been the global pandemic and Russia invading Ukraine. Any negative economic effects of Brexit have been dwarfed by these two huge events.

Genuine lol

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).

Why would it be a good idea to become more reliant on a region that experiences political instability, increasingly frequent harsh droughts and food insecurity of their own? Add in young growing populations that increases domestic demand and it isn't the great idea that you think it would be.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Bless Paul and Wendy - Paul still needs to believe as he sits there with a full bladder on a sweaty coach

Daily Mail climbdown on Brexit border chaos says it all

Brits have pledged never to go through the port of Dover again after long queues at customs made the journey intolerable.

www.thelondoneconomic.com

This is news?
People voted for something and got what they voted for.

 

[GortonBlue62]

well the fact that they occasionally do modify and reject laws from the Commission rather makes my point. As I said The Commissioners are appointed but have to be ratified by a majority of MEP's ( you know the ones who are elected in the EU elections ).

The Commission is so secret they publish quarterly reports on what they have been dealing with. Proper espionage/conspiracy theory.

Dragging dubious personal dislikes of politicians in and how they progressed through legislatures is pointless. We can trade examples that prove nothing other than politicians do politics.

Its funny that coz when we were in the EU MEP's did assist constituents - even the fuckwit Dorries could see that where we are now leaves us outside the EU looking in following rules with no influence on them.

As ever Brexiteers can never really be specific on EU laws coz they followed the rants of Farage without asking what laws. Interesting you come down on CAP - because famously now we are no longer in it we are giving away our sheep farming and grain farming a veterinary control at the borders in exchange for the cheapest - sorry dearest - food in Europe - Jesus even Lidl trainers are back in store costing £15 when they used to be a tenner - you will need to take that up with Reet-Smug though coz he lied to you about cheap trainers too.

My examples of Kinnock and Mandelson were just that, examples that illustrate the principle of democratic accountability and nothing to do with making a narrow political point.

The daily workings of the House of Commons are freely available for all to see, not in a quarterly report of the one party state that is the EU Commission.

MEPs can not go back to the Commission once EU law is on a member states statute books. Their big chance is before the legislation passes to the Council of Ministers. As I said a Parliament in name only to satisfy EU apologists like you.

The EU makes no claim to be democratic, it was set up to bypass national democracies and openly and frequently makes the point. (Excessive nationalist tendencies that caused the second world war were a result of a lack of democracy not too much - the EU's founding fathers overlooked the fact that Hitler and Mussollini were autocratic dictators unencumbered by having to submit themselves to the inconvenience of an election - people tend not to vote for warmongers - which is why it's rare for two democracies to go to war.).

Very sorry your trainers are a bit more expensive. You clearly have no idea about what's important in a debate of this magnitude and prefer to concentrate on details and completely ignore the big picture; having the vote matters and anything that dilutes the power of that vote should be resisted.

 

[GortonBlue62]

Genuine lol

Are you saying that Covid and the Ukraine have had less impact on the UK economy than Brexit.

You're clearly not living in the real world pal.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I voted to leave the EU so that we could engage more fully with the wider world.

Sovereignty in your definition seems to be about pulling up the drawbridge and not engaging with the rest of the world.

Sovereignty in my definition is about having the ability to set your own path.

Which it makes it an abstract concept. Your ability to set your own path comes in conflict with your rivals.

It's about engaging with the wider world, both culturally and economically. It's about breaking down trade barriers and embracing capitalism and globalisation.

Societies that close themselves off are doomed to fail. The EU with it's protectionist economic policies and its excessive application of the precautionary principle, to name but two of its many failings, is the best example of a failing 'state'.

Japan and Germany's technological dominance would never have happened without protectionism before opening up.

Globalisation is dying. The world is breaking up into blocks. We have cast ourselves a drift without a paddle and without any friends for help.

The UK's success in the years ahead will depend on which politicians can take the opportunities Brexit offers. Unfortunately the current crop seem to be fucking useless so I'm not too optimistic. But Brexit is an opportunity and we're never rejoining the EU so maybe remoaners need to accept they lost and just get on with it?

Lol.

Brexit wasn't a revolution, it was the last throw of the dice of a failing world view. It's relevance will die with your generation.

The self-reflection and self-awareness is severely lacking. The UK has had three PMs in the last year and not even the hint of an election. Ministers paid huge sums and severance packages for a few works week last summer, and our rivers are full of shit.

The current government adopts fascist campaign strategies against working people and climate activists and falsely characterises it's opponents as the political wing of an activist group they have condemned at every opportunity.

 

[GortonBlue62]

Why would it be a good idea to become more reliant on a region that experiences political instability, increasingly frequent harsh droughts and food insecurity of their own? Add in young growing populations that increases domestic demand and it isn't the great idea that you think it would be.

More reliant? When did I say that. My point is that the EU is the slowest growing economic block on the planet. In continental terms only Antarctica is performing more poorly. Asia, Africa and the Americas are a much better bet than the aging sclerotic EU.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It hasn't turned out to be a steaming turd. The big impacts to the British economy have been the global pandemic and Russia invading Ukraine. Any negative economic effects of Brexit have been dwarfed by these two huge events.

The economists who wrongly predicted economic meltdown if we didn't join the Euro are the same economists who got it wrong again about EU membership.

Don't know how you can say that. Even the US and Australia are feeling the effects of brexit with high inflation and low growth. The UK has not only committed an act of self harm, but has also unbalanced the global economy.
You can try and blame this on covid and Ukraine but Putin would never have invaded Ukraine it it were not for Brexit seeding division in Europe.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

More reliant? When did I say that. My point is that the EU is the slowest growing economic block on the planet. In continental terms only Antarctica is performing more poorly. Asia, Africa and the Americas are a much better bet than the aging sclerotic EU.

No shit. We also have aging declining populations. Something those other regions (excluding Japan in Asia) don't have.

 

[GortonBlue62]

Which it makes it an abstract concept. Your ability to set your own path comes in conflict with your rivals.


Japan and Germany's technological dominance would never have happened without protectionism before opening up.

Globalisation is dying. The world is breaking up into blocks. We have cast ourselves a drift without a paddle and without any friends for help.



Lol.

Brexit wasn't a revolution, it was the last throw of the dice of a failing world view. It's relevance will die with your generation.

The self-reflection and self-awareness is severely lacking. The UK has had three PMs in the last year and not even the hint of an election. Ministers paid huge sums and severance packages for a few works week last summer, and our rivers are full of shit.

The current government adopts fascist campaign strategies against working people and climate activists and falsely characterises it's opponents as the political wing of an activist group they have condemned at every opportunity.

You seem to have missed the point that our head of state got the job when his mum died last year. Unfortunately we are a monarchy not a Republic and that'll probably never change. We'll have a chance to judge the current government some time before December 2024 at the next General election.

My world view is more optimistic and progressive and open than anything you are offering. The way forward is more trade, more openness, more freedom. The exact opposite of the EU's closed protectionist stance.

You're cynicism lack of idealism and failure to understand what's required for a peaceful and prosperous future is depressing in the extreme (I'm assuming you're younger than me from your 'generation' comment and your total lack of perspective).

 

[GortonBlue62]

Don't know how you can say that. Even the US and Australia are feeling the effects of brexit with high inflation and low growth. The UK has not only committed an act of self harm, but has also unbalanced the global economy.
You can try and blame this on covid and Ukraine but Putin would never have invaded Ukraine it it were not for Brexit seeding division in Europe.

Are you seriously suggesting that Labour shortages in Europe and elsewhere are anything to do with Brexit?

I'm out. It's like trying to explain to a rag or a dipper that City have not broken FFP to any significant extent.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

What has to be a choker for some is that they wanted stronger boarders to keep people out but we now have to open them up to the rest of the world to fill our workforce.

Even that’s not enough.

 

[BobKowalski]

...

My world view is more optimistic and progressive and open than anything you are offering. The way forward is more trade, more openness, more freedom. The exact opposite of the EU's closed protectionist stance.

You're cynicism lack of idealism and failure to understand what's required for a peaceful and prosperous future is depressing in the extreme (I'm assuming you're younger than me from your 'generation' comment and your total lack of perspective).

Brexit has produced the exact opposite. You must know that Brexit has resulted in higher trade barriers with Europe, our most important trading bloc, and removed our right to freedom of movement.

Your position is intellectually incoherent.