How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

There is no way on God's green earth we are getting 'special' terms.
We will probably not have to adopt the Euro immediately but that would be about it.
However, rejoining would be so good for our economy that we ought not to be picky. The Euro and Schengen would be a small price to pay, and, counterintuitively, being in Schengen would almost certainly improve our border control as we would have access to their database. The Dublin Agreement would also apply once more.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Money talks tho. Certainly no chance of returning with favourable terms under this shower. I guess we will see. On a personal level it's not a massive issue for me or my life whether we do or don't. But like every other uk citizen, I want a the UK and its people to do well.
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Ok, I’ll admit to being a bit flippant, not quite on the wind up, but mindful of keeping levity in my posts when dealing with a subject that is after all, foreign to me.

What I mean is, I’m always conscious in here, that at the end of the day, it’s your business, although occasionally it spills into our business.

So having said that, how far would you go to see the people of the UK doing well.
You’ve already admitted you voted to leave one union for those exact reasons. If the people of the UK doing well was at odds with The UK doing well, what would you accept.

What I’m talking about is self determination for Scotland as has already being discussed. Them maybe opting into the EU.

Northern Ireland with a big question mark over it. Looking at Scotland. Seeing how they get on.

I hate using sectarian divisions of religion as I firmly believe church and state should be totally separate and I don’t really believe that a Northern vote would divide rigidly along religious lines. The youth up north have hopefully moved well passed that. But it is a good indication of the Nationalist/Loyalist breakdown.

Leaving a question mark there, where would England and Wales stand in the break up of the UK?

What would you support, for the betterment of the UK people.

I’ll leave my Irish bias out of it, as although I joked earlier about you joining the FREEstate, I really have no idea what the future of Ireland as a whole would look like if the North put it up to us.
A bilateral agreement of some sort was mentioned. If it involved dual citizenship, would it be for the whole island?
What would it mean for you on the current mainland UK.

I think in general, as you’ve found out through centuries of history, we think differently to you when it comes to European integration.
I think the future resolution of the worlds pressing issues is going to involve greater union and globalisation of standards and regulation. Whether that be economical, stopping war or just saving the planet from climate disaster. We could be too late there, but if so god help the future generation we’re leaving these problems with. Wait until mass migrations start, it’ll dwarf your immigration problem at the moment.

In short, theoretically, would you accept the dissolution of the UK for something that bettered the lives of the people of the UK.

Not that far fetched when you consider nearly half of Northern Ireland are being asked to mull this over already.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Let's see if I fully understand you, we need to get our economy in shape, and in order do that we need to get back into the EU, but to get back into the EU we need to get our economy in shape, but if we get our economy in shape there's no point in going back into the EU.

I think that's a logical fallacy? Or is it a circular argument? Either way I'm confused.
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The UK needs to get it's economy in shape without (both meanings) the EU. To do that will mean, amongst other things, trade deals with partners. Those trade deals will become obsolete should the UK rejoin the EU. The incentive to sign a deal with the UK intent on rejoining is less than if the UK is not intending to do so because, generally speaking, Johnny foreigners who negotiate such deals are aware of how the EU works.

If the UK succeeds in turning it's economy around with the help of international trade, it's economy will be linked to those relationships in the same way it was linked to the EU before Brexit. So rejoining will entail a second major upheaval for UK industry. The stronger the UK ecoomy becomes the greater the problem, for both the UK and the EU.

Spain was arguably the last large economy to join the EU, ten years before EMU. Including the UK into the EURO would have implications that would need to be considered at that time - by the EU. Things such as interest rates, inflation, national debt, dirty money in London, etc will all play a part in that process. The UK will have to apply for membership, and show that it can meet the conditions to join (what about those trade deals, then).

The time frame for the UK rejoining th eEU will be decided by the EU, should it ever happen.

I find the arrogance of rejoiners that the UK will be welcomed with open arms when they deign to rejoin is not much different from the coceitedness of the Brexiteers "they need us more than we need them".
 
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I am still saddened that our nation chose to leave the EU. The evidence is clear that we have deeply damaged our economy. We have sacrificed our social freedoms, and I remain absolutely puzzled about what we believe we have gained. I am from a family of Brexit voters. We do not discuss the issue anymore as it is too polarised a topic and affects relationships. Seriously, for what?
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
I think this government, since the coalition are appalling. Hard to think of how anybody apart from the super rich and the largest corporations have gained anything from their tenure. I am struggling to think of anything that has been significantly beneficial and positive.
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This government has been foisted upon us by our preposterous electoral system.

The mistake that was made by many was assuming our nation’s ills were down to the EU’s political structures, rather than our own.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Well what I mean by that is not rejoining on less favourable terms than when we left. But I have no faith that this government wouldn't manage to mess that up. I guess we would have to have an another referendum first. Be interesting to see how that panned out. Close again I think but probably rejoin would.in is my gut feeling. Many people I know , who i would term middle of the road voters, are very disenchanted with the UK government and the way things have been implemented. Would they take that view further and vote to rejoin. Maybe.
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We will absolutely rejoin on less favourable terms than we left. Whoever is negotiating.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
We will absolutely rejoin on less favourable terms than we left. Whoever is negotiating.
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Inevitable. We will have a less influential economy. We negotiated our opt outs over a number of years and we will be cap in hand otherwise why would we be wanting to rejoin? We have also shown ourselves to be crappy negotiators so it will be a League 2 team up against the PL Champions. If you liken it to the FA Cup we would have to get dead lucky to get a win - might happen but seldom does.

As evidence I cite todays rejoining of Horizon. Its £2.2bn a year. Sunak declares that as a success as it was previously £10bn per year. However thats just Horizon if we go back then piece by piece the EU will be making demands for each item we gain each bit of access and so on. Then bit by bit we will try to reduce each bill with rebates. Imagine how many years that will take us?
 
bluethrunthru said:
Inevitable. We will have a less influential economy. We negotiated our opt outs over a number of years and we will be cap in hand otherwise why would we be wanting to rejoin? We have also shown ourselves to be crappy negotiators so it will be a League 2 team up against the PL Champions.
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Are you seriously trying to suggest that we need them more than they need us?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that we need them more than they need us?
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I suggest we had a functional and favourable partnership that worked well - as you know we dicked that into the ground in a blaze of Union flags and hope/belief - we will need them but as some of that 27 will have suffered as a result of us leaving any of us with any sense understand that we would be starting from the ground up and trying to get as high as we were but that bar will no longer be within our reach
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
I voted out, for several reasons. Sadly none of these have been implemented by this government. I voted out for greater uk independence on tax rates, the ability for the uk to encourage external investment which hasn’t happened and greater internal investment, which also hasn't happened. I wanted reasonable controls on immigration, not no immigration, this hasn't happened, as we only let in people who we wont let work ie illegal immigrants. Lots of labour shortages across all uk industry sectors have contributed to massive increases in wage inflation.

I still believe that we could have left the EU better than we have, but was probably naive in thinking the UK government were capable of negotiating this. I was touch and go in making up my original decision , but now think if given a choice again and with hindsight of how we have left I would vote to stay, as the benefits I thought we would gain in leaving haven't been implemented.

I'm not sure whether how much of this feeling is down to my disenchantment with this government ?
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The fact that you, as a vocal proponent of a no deal Brexit a few years ago, are now saying that you made a mistake suggests that the vast majority of the population wish we’d never left. Sadly it’s too late and our economy has been hobbled for a generation thanks to you and people like you who voted for this shit without a clue what was going to happen. Hope you’re happy.
 
Vic said:
Well, that's blueinsa and Churchlawtonblue ...

Only really Oldham Exile to do a mea culpa.
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The whole mea culpa thing probably doesn’t help the debate, whatever the debate is to be in this thread, but……
He hasn’t shown up in here since I asked him a straight question.
Not sure how to read that.
I know what it makes me think, but not sure why it matters.
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
The whole mea culpa thing probably doesn’t help the debate, whatever the debate is to be in this thread, but……
He hasn’t shown up in here since I asked him a straight question.
Not sure how to read that.
I know what it makes me think, but not sure why it matters.
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You’re not the only one to say that to him. He always disappears. It’s pretty obvious why.
 
west didsblue said:
You’re not the only one to say that to him. He always disappears. It’s pretty obvious why.
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That’s fine WD, but although I say that at the end of the day, this is your own business….
Why does it matter? Well from my point of view it’s nothing to do with mea culpa. People vote for whatever reasons on a number of issues. It doesn’t mean you don’t learn. We all do.
Past behaviour is no guarantee to future performance. You’d hope. For us all.

No. My interest in asking the question out straight is that I would pursue a debate with him, if he was the same person I had debated with years earlier, pointing out the obvious difficulties that were going to arise for the North of Ireland.
The one person I recall most, basically acknowledged the difficulties, but more or less said, so be it, if that’s what it takes.
 
west didsblue said:
The fact that you, as a vocal proponent of a no deal Brexit a few years ago, are now saying that you made a mistake suggests that the vast majority of the population wish we’d never left. Sadly it’s too late and our economy has been hobbled for a generation thanks to you and people like you who voted for this shit without a clue what was going to happen. Hope you’re happy.
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Yes one poster does mean that

Pmsl
 
hilts said:
Yes one poster does mean that

Pmsl
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Fair point.

However he is unlikely to be the only one with such entrenched views 3 or 4 years ago that has changed his opinion completely, and even if he only represents the views of just 1 in 10 leave voters it would still mean a sizeable majority would rather be in the EU.

All academic because we’re out and we’re going to have to make the best of it for the next few years until the political climate has changed sufficiently both here and on the continent.
 
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