How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[mancity2012_eamo]

Sounds like the UK, except Ireland, Wales and Scotland were forced into the UK, whereas joining the EU was a choice.

Careful now.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yeah, the thread is poorly worded TBF.

‘Brexit is wank’ would be more apposite.

 

[grunge]

I am and always will be staunchly pro EU.

But if the UK wants to make a success of Brexit the single biggest chance is AI. We ( the world ) are on the cusp of the next Industrial Revolution with AI and one thing the EU is doing wrong is trying to regulate it so much. That regulation while possibly a good idea long term will mean being left behind.

The UK could be at the forefront of AI but we are failing on it because we are still linked to the EU on regulations effecting it.

The AI ship is sailing. The US and China are away and sailing but still in the port. The EU is behind, barely loading the boat and we are stuck with them.

If the UK wants it, this is our chance. It’s possible it’s too late but we could still be at somewhere to the front of the race. If we have the balls to do it.

I will caveat this post with “much booze consumed”

 

[RayCTID]

It is beyond fixing. Farage and co have well and truly stiched the UK up.

 

[hampshireblue]

No no no. Imposing regulatory standards whether harmonised or not and then assuming that this will create more business is total lunacy. Regulation is utterly irrelevant to this picture, more regulation in any form always increases costs and always reduces competitiveness. The EU is obsessed with protectionist, anti-competitive regulation and that's why just for a start there will never be an EU free trade deal with the UK. Fool on us, fool on them.

Ultimately the EU as an entity is happy providing that it retains market protectionism but I doubt that its citizens are happy. You're arguing for nothing more than to take advantage and join in with this protectionism. This however suits accountants and lawyers but it doesn't put food on the table. If it did then where is the growth and penny for the thoughts of anybody in the North whose manufacturing job was exported to cheaper shores.

If we want new growth, jobs and wealth then forget the rules, tear up the rules, give companies access to free capital and allow them to take risks. That is what the growing part of the world is doing because they have access to money and they also have regulatory freedom which gives rise to innovation and greater competitiveness. If the US moves to deregulate under Trump then the EU and UK are even more f*cked.

We're never going to see this type of innovation in Europe if we truly believe that a subset of rules set by random old farts in Brussels is the answer. It takes the EU YEARS to decide upon a rule and by that point China has already built entire new cities, factories and jobs. We can harmonise the rules but we can't let ourselves be defined by it but that has become the epitomy of the EU's existence and it's driving Europe into the ground.

China is the largest economic superpower ever to exist but China is not worrying about regulation, it's worrying about global competitive dominance. This is do or die and choosing to be uncompetitive and protect what's within is choosing to die. The EU has therefore actually already given up, it is closing down the shop and telling its citizens to get down into the bunker.

Wasn't it the lack of regulatory standards that led to the Global Financial Crash?

By tearing up the rules, you give organisations carte blanche to mis-treat staff, ignore safety standards, basically whatever the product, the public will have no idea how it is produced. Most "rules" are there to protect the end user.

Are you actually advocating the way China goes about doing things?

 

[Blue Llama]

Wasn't it the lack of regulatory standards that led to the Global Financial Crash?

By tearing up the rules, you give organisations carte blanche to mis-treat staff, ignore safety standards, basically whatever the product, the public will have no idea how it is produced.

Are you actually advocating the way China goes about doing things?

Well, China would not have given the populace a vote on brexit. So whose to say they get everything wrong?

 

[meltonblue]

Several non-EU European countries have special trade agreements with the EU, primarily through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

The EFTA includes:
• Iceland
• Liechtenstein
• Norway

These countries participate in the European Economic Area (EEA), allowing them to access the EU’s single market while not being EU members.

Switzerland, although not in the EEA, has numerous bilateral agreements with the EU that facilitate trade and cooperation.

Other non-EU countries like Andorra and San Marino also have specific trade arrangements with the EU.

View attachment 141792

But we didn’t want EFTA!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Sounds like the UK, except Ireland, Wales and Scotland were forced into the UK, whereas joining the EU was a choice.

How far back do you want to go? Roman’s? Vikings?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

How far back do you want to go? Roman’s? Vikings?

Romans never reached Ireland.
It’s said the Vikings became more Irish than the Irish themselves. Integration! Trading. Inter marriage.

Ok. Who came before them?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

But we didn’t want EFTA!

What was there before EFTA?

I’m not saying the UK wanted anything or nothing that has been done before, only that things didn’t work out as planned, and there’s plenty of blame on both sides why, imho.

 

[hampshireblue]

Other countries have a distinctly different relationship with the EU, but that relationship is not “available” to the UK, because we dared to listen to voters who didn’t want everything the EU was “offering.”

In short, we were given an “all or nothing” ultimatum. Even though it was clear many millions of voters want a relationship with the Continent, the EU has nixed anything less than “give us all the money and none of the autonomy or nothing!”

If you're talking about the,likes of Norway in terms of a relationship, unfortunately Johnson and his cronies ruled that out and so it became a non starter.

We never did "give all the money" as we had a significant rebate that was exclusive to the UK.

 

[blueparrot]

But we didn’t want EFTA!

Who didn’t, it was never a question, the ERG didn’t and it was them that drove us to the hard brexit.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Romans never reached Ireland.
It’s said the Vikings became more Irish than the Irish themselves. Integration! Trading. Inter marriage.

Ok. Who came before them?

Exactly. Boundaries and “ownership” are fluid over time, but where we are now is what we have to deal with.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Who didn’t, it was never a question, the ERG didn’t and it was them that drove us to the hard brexit.

It was never going to be possible. The referendum campaign was dominated by freedom of movement and racism.

How would it be sold as anything other than a betrayal to accept free movement?

 

[blueparrot]

It was never going to be possible. The referendum campaign was dominated by freedom of movement and racism.

How would it be sold as anything other than a betrayal to accept free movement?

It was, though it was Gove that spoke of a free trace area from Iceland to Russia, it was Farage that advocated the Norway or Swiss models. I think both were to stupid to realise what it meant for free movement hence their back pedalling into a hard brexit. It fooled many voters though including sorry to say my parents who went on to regret their vote.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

It was, though it was Gove that spoke of a free trace area from Iceland to Russia, it was Farage that advocated the Norway or Swiss models. I think both were to stupid to realise what it meant for free movement hence their back pedalling into a hard brexit. It fooled many voters though including sorry to say my parents who went on to regret their vote.

Or they knew what they were doing? And they simply said different things to different audiences.

Brexit came into being to keep the Tory party together. A "betrayal" on free movement would have split the party. In fact I think it would actually have caused the rise of reform or another far right party sooner, and riots on the street.

Why would Theresa May have tried to push it through?

 

[blueparrot]

Or they knew what they were doing? And they simply said different things to different audiences.

Brexit came into being to keep the Tory party together. A "betrayal" on free movement would have split the party. In fact I think it would actually have caused the rise of reform or another far right party sooner, and riots on the street.

Why would Theresa May have tried to push it through?

I completely understand why it never happened. My point was pointing out to say 'we didn't want EFTA' is wrong because voters were never asked and at least a proportion of those that voted leave will have listened to Gove and Farage and others and believed them when they implied a version of EFTA was on the table,and possible.

 

[The perfect fumble]

It was never going to be possible. The referendum campaign was dominated by freedom of movement and racism.

How would it be sold as anything other than a betrayal to accept free movement?

They could point out that the loss of free movement has not brought down the number of people arriving, and those folk arriving now tend to stay, whereas under free movement large numbers went back home or to pastures new over time.

And even the most ignorant racist must've noticed that all those Poles, Romanians, Estonians with their orthodox Christianity, Catholicism and white skin, have now been replaced with Nigerians, Asians and various other folk whose skin colour and religion they've always detested.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

They could point out that the loss of free movement has not brought down the number of people arriving, and those folk arriving now tend to stay, whereas under free movement large numbers went back home or to pastures new over time.

And even the most ignorant racist must've noticed that all those Poles, Romanians, Estonians with their orthodox Christianity, Catholicism and white skin, have now been replaced with Nigerians, Asians and various other folk whose skin colour and religion they've always detested.

That's a logical argument based on reason. Do you think that would have cut through with people who are of average or below average intelligence that vote was mostly influenced by emotion?

I happen to live in the archetypal southern market town that voted as a majority for Brexit for racist reasons that now has noticeably more African immigrants working in health and social care.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

And even the most ignorant racist must've noticed that all those Poles, Romanians, Estonians with their orthodox Christianity, Catholicism and white skin, have now been replaced with Nigerians, Asians and various other folk whose skin colour and religion they've always detested.

It’s definitely one significant Brexit benefit seeing all the horrible racist cunts being hoisted by their own petard. They have literally voted to increase the number of Black and Asian immigrants.

Absolutely fucking hilarious.