How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Magicpole said:
We got the future England wanted. They need to fix it. We voted 62% to remain. We are in this shit through the folly of our neighbours. That’s why we wanted a move.
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Scotland trades x4 more with the rest of the UK than the EU.

Leaving the UK to join the EU represents trading one master for another albeit you'll have even less say as a small country in the EU. You'll have zero say on your trading relationships and that will immediately and probably forever impose trade barriers with your largest trading partner which is located geographically next door.

As much as you may hate Westminster, leaving the UK would be a disaster for Scotland. To argue otherwise goes into a more nationalistic argument which is ironically also where the Brexit campaign is founded.
 
inbetween said:
Scotland trades x4 more with the rest of the UK than the EU.

Leaving the UK to join the EU represents trading one master for another albeit you'll have even less say as a small country in the EU. You'll have zero say on your trading relationships and that will immediately and probably forever impose trade barriers with your largest trading partner which is located geographically next door.

As much as you may hate Westminster, leaving the UK would be a disaster for Scotland. To argue otherwise goes into a more nationalistic argument which is ironically also where the Brexit campaign is founded.
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inbetween said:
Scotland trades x4 more with the rest of the UK than the EU.

Leaving the UK to join the EU represents trading one master for another albeit you'll have even less say as a small country in the EU. You'll have zero say on your trading relationships and that will immediately and probably forever impose trade barriers with your largest trading partner which is located geographically next door.

As much as you may hate Westminster, leaving the UK would be a disaster for Scotland. To argue otherwise goes into a more nationalistic argument which is ironically also where the Brexit campaign is founded.
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Strange you seem to think that Scotland can’t survive because “it’s too small” but accept that a country with a similar population size ( such as New Zealand) are perfectly fine.

You also forget that Scotland has £1.5 trillion of oil reserves. .
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Strange you seem to think that Scotland can’t survive because “it’s too small” but accept that a country with a similar population size ( such as New Zealand) are perfectly fine.

You also forget that Scotland has £1.5 trillion of oil reserves. .
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I never understand these arguments.

I read on here every single day that the UK, a £2.7tn economy apparently cannot survive outside of the EU. And yet Scotland, a £250bn economy which is highly dependent on the UK can apparently survive outside of the UK? How?

Considering the facts, it cannot be true that the UK is screwed for leaving the EU whereas Scotland is not screwed if it left the UK. It can only be both or neither. With things as they stand today Scotland cannot afford to have a physical border on everything people and goods between Scotland and the rest of the UK, period.

Scotland does not have £1.5 trillion of viable oil reserves otherwise they'd be drilling that now. The SNP also has a party goal to decarbonise Scotland and drilling is surely opposite to achieving that? Or does climate change become less relevant when it comes to measures required to save your economy through poor decisions... ?
 
inbetween said:
It cannot be true that the UK is screwed for leaving the EU whereas Scotland is not screwed if it left the UK. It can only be both or neither given the facts of either's trading relationships. Scotland quite simply cannot afford to have a physical border on everything people and goods between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
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I've disagreed with you on almost everything Brexit up to now, but I think you're spot on here.

Brexit has completely voided the case for Scottish independence. I can't see how Scotland in the EU, but the UK out could ever work. It implies either border controls in Carlisle or special status for England (like NI has now), which neither England or the Eu would countenance, surely.

Scotland independent means Scotland out of the EU, I think?
 
roubaixtuesday said:
I've disagreed with you on almost everything Brexit up to now, but I think you're spot on here.

Brexit has completely voided the case for Scottish independence. I can't see how Scotland in the EU, but the UK out could ever work. It implies either border controls in Carlisle or special status for England (like NI has now), which neither England or the Eu would countenance, surely.

Scotland independent means Scotland out of the EU, I think?
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Joining the EU also isn't instant, it would take years, probably a decade or more to negotiate entry.

The UK would never allow Scotland to negotiate its position in the EU whilst it remained within the UK. They'd first have to negotiate leaving the UK, leave the UK, and then negotiate joining the EU alone as a 3rd country.

Once in the EU Scotland's relationship with the UK then becomes a matter for the EU to decide which is also a completely stupid decision. This is hardly 'independence' is it? It's trading one master for another.
 
Magicpole said:
We got the future England wanted. They need to fix it. We voted 62% to remain. We are in this shit through the folly of our neighbours. That’s why we wanted a move.
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It's perverse, Scotland wanted to remain in the EU but Brexit has shown why separation from a union is a complicated thing, making people wary of leaving the UK.
 
Vic said:
It's perverse, Scotland wanted to remain in the EU but Brexit has shown why separation from a union is a complicated thing, making people wary of leaving the UK.
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I don't think it's complicated at all because there is no weariness. 51% of Scotland wanted to remain within the UK. Has the UK leaving the EU materially changed that in favour of independence? The polls don't really suggest so.

Ironically the biggest recent swing to independence has occurred since Labour got into power. This is however reflected generally over the entire UK where the approval and polling of the two mainstream parties is just shocking.

It seems to me that Scotland's rush to rejoin the EU is more about exchanging the useless bunch in the south.
 
inbetween said:
Considering the facts, it cannot be true that the UK is screwed for leaving the EU whereas Scotland is not screwed if it left the UK. It can only be both or neither.
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Flawed logic because you are not comparing like with like. You are assuming Scotland’s trading relationship with the rest of the world would replicate the UK’s which isn’t necessarily correct. If Scotland were to depart the UK and immediately join the EU they would be a long way from screwed.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Science progresses one funeral at a time - Max Planck
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Indeed...


forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

can't fix anything until the likes of Hoey just die off "Science progresses one funeral at a time" - Max Plank on refusal of physicists to accept quantum mechanics. Brexit is similar, and the recent interactions on this thread follow suit, a simple refusal to engage with reality, even 8...
forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk
 
Chris in London said:
Flawed logic because you are not comparing like with like. You are assuming Scotland’s trading relationship with the rest of the world would replicate the UK’s which isn’t necessarily correct. If Scotland were to depart the UK and immediately join the EU they would be a long way from screwed.
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But surely, Scotland would replicate the trading relationship with England that the EU has, so border at Carlisle, non tariff barriers to trade etc, which would totally knacker Scotland. What an I missing here?
 
roubaixtuesday said:
But surely, Scotland would replicate the trading relationship with England that the EU has, so border at Carlisle, non tariff barriers to trade etc, which would totally knacker Scotland. What an I missing here?
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If Scotland rejoined the single market they lose free access to England and Wales but would gain free access to a market with hundreds of millions of consumers.
 
Chris in London said:
If Scotland rejoined the single market they lose free access to England and Wales but would gain free access to a market with hundreds of millions of consumers.
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I would be very surprised indeed if the improved access to the EU more than made up for a border at Carlisle.

In the same way that global trade deals don't match the loss of our trade with the EU, geography suggest similar logic for Scotland and the EU.
 
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