How do you explain self organisation in nature?

mammutly said:
The chances of you not only making a profit, but stumbling upon a viable population of others who have similar extraordinary luck is very, very, very, very, low. Infact it's pretty much none.

I might have misunderstood your point here, but they would have been self replicating in the beginning.
 
I think this may be a little more back towards the original topic posted...

A documentary based on the 6 Degrees of Separation theory...

<a class="postlink" href="http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/six-degrees-of-separation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/six-degr ... eparation/</a>

Essentially this discusses the "new" Science of Networks....how all things are linked, to an extent and how some random developments arent that random
 
mammutly said:
whilst it's true that evolution doesn't necessarily create true beliefs it can easily be understood to need to produce cognitive senses that are reliable in conjuntion with the external world and once that occurs we have a starting point to weed out false beliefs (using the scientific method for example).

A minor light in the gloom!

congruence? Is that necessary for evolution, then?

The probability of evolution ( random mutations, naturally selected for their survival value) having produced cognitive mechanisms at all is remote in the extreme. But relaible & congruent beliefs?

In what context?

You'll be familiar with the notion of primitive Paul who lived in the time of very few people.

Paul who decides not to run from the fire but nevertheless, because of a multitude of interacting variables, survives, whilst the rest of his tribe perish. Paul is now , according to evolutionary theory, more fit to survive.

I actually don't have a problem with adaptive systems evolving over time. But the probability of a single molecule developing from scratch via random mutation and selection is millions of billions to one.

Evolutionary theory argues that the process is not entirely random. I accept that there are external conditions which favour certain outcomes. That reduces the odds to mere billions.

The second reposte to probability is that the sheer number of trials which occur in nature mean that eventually the right combination will occur.

If you have £100 and put £1 on 100 100/1 outsiders, it is almost certain that you will lose your money.

The chances of you not only making a profit, but stumbling upon a viable population of others who have similar extraordinary luck is very, very, very, very, low. Infact it's pretty much none.

But, if there was a plan, a design, that directed selection according to non random processes, a sign post if you like; the chances of punters loaded with dosh from unlikely bets stumbling across one another would be more credible.

This is why I say that an intelligent design ( God if you like) is more probable than a random ( albeit environmentally influenced) evolutionary theory to explain how life developed.

Evolution is a theory not a fact. If it claims to be a science, then by definition it has to potentially disprovable. It is a pity that so many of those who subscribe seem to forget that fact.

Please don't come back to me with spurious arguments about divine beings. Stick to the terms of reference. We are debating evolution here, not religion.


A minor light in the gloom!

congruence? Is that necessary for evolution, then?

The probability of evolution ( random mutations, naturally selected for their survival value) having produced cognitive mechanisms at all is remote in the extreme. But relaible & congruent beliefs?

In what context?

You'll be familiar with the notion of primitive Paul who lived in the time of very few people.

Paul who decides not to run from the fire but nevertheless, because of a multitude of interacting variables, survives, whilst the rest of his tribe perish. Paul is now , according to evolutionary theory, more fit to survive.
Remember evolution occurs in populations. Whilst "primitive Paul" may have got lucky enough to pass on his genes, over the course of time, and as the population increases, these examples would be outweighed by those who escape danger thanks to heightened senses or other strengths. See genetic drift for more info in this sphere of evolutionary processes.
Generally, if our senses told us that a 1000ft drop was only a 1ft drop then ... well it pays to have accurate cognitive senses obviously. Note that I am talking here about senses.
As for the relationship between evolution and (true and false) beliefs, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "belief". If you want to clarify exactly what you mean then I'll answer as fully as I can.
I'd be interested in seeing you expand on the following also:
The probability of evolution ( random mutations, naturally selected for their survival value) having produced cognitive mechanisms at all is remote in the extreme.

I actually don't have a problem with adaptive systems evolving over time. But the probability of a single molecule developing from scratch via random mutation and selection is millions of billions to one.
First of all, you're delving into abiogenesis here. Random mutations occur in the reproductive process. So talking about evolution before the self replicating molecule had arisen - which is more chemistry than biology - is kind of pointless. The study of abiogenesis is interesting and is making headway (I think we'll make life in our life time) but not exactly applicable to evolution theory.

Evolutionary theory argues that the process is not entirely random. I accept that there are external conditions which favour certain outcomes. That reduces the odds to mere billions
Yes Evolutionary theory argues that. Infact the selecting process of natural selection is at the very core of evolution. Mutations are the only random part. You keep overstating the randomness of evolution.
BTW, are these probablity figures you are mentioning just guesses or are they referenced from a study of some kind? (if the latter post the source please)

The second reposte to probability is that the sheer number of trials which occur in nature mean that eventually the right combination will occur.
Indeed and let's not forget the gradual nature of it building upon the (non deleterious) mutations already present. It is not a case of 100 monkeys typing randomly on a typewriter and happening to come up with shakespeare.

If you have £100 and put £1 on 100 100/1 outsiders, it is almost certain that you will lose your money.
That's very likely true but what does it have to do with how evolution works?

The chances of you not only making a profit, but stumbling upon a viable population of others who have similar extraordinary luck is very, very, very, very, low. Infact it's pretty much none.
In your above analogy, sure, but your analogy is completely inappropriate.

But, if there was a plan, a design, that directed selection according to non random processes, a sign post if you like; the chances of punters loaded with dosh from unlikely bets stumbling across one another would be more credible.
RE: punters with loads of dosh - see above.

Evolution is directed by a non random process - natural selection.

This is why I say that an intelligent design ( God if you like) is more probable than a random ( albeit environmentally influenced) evolutionary theory to explain how life developed.
And now I see why you think that. If your analogy is anything to go by you're confused about evolution.

Evolution is a theory not a fact. If it claims to be a science, then by definition it has to potentially disprovable. It is a pity that so many of those who subscribe seem to forget that fact.
Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Biological entities change/evolve over time. That is a fact. How it occurs exactly is theory. Also a scientific theory is not to be confused with the laymans term of theory (which is closer to hypothesis) It isn't exactly just some idea someones spewed out.
Evolution is also falsifiable.

Please don't come back to me with spurious arguments about divine beings. Stick to the terms of reference. We are debating evolution here, not religion
Your spurious arguments are enough for the both of us pal. ;)<br /><br />-- Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:38 am --<br /><br />.



Sun Jihai's ghost said:
mammulty you make a lot of sense. Can I reccomend a book to you, I think you would like it.

http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Delusi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278962980&sr=8-1

Berlinski??

What arguments of his are you actually recommending? He's a bloody idiot.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fHrM_F6gg&feature=related[/youtube]
 
ElanJo said:
Sun Jihai's ghost said:
mammulty you make a lot of sense. Can I recommend a book to you, I think you would like it.

http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Delusi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278962980&sr=8-1

Berlinski??

What arguments of his are you actually recommending? He's a bloody idiot.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fHrM_F6gg&feature=related[/youtube]


ah your good friend that world famous biologist and mathematician Conrad the Conman

conrad.jpg


check out his wide range of interests here!
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=conradleviston#g/u" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=conradleviston#g/u</a>

Which of his arguments are you recommending? No please don't tell me I know - all of them!

David Berlinski is an intellectual pigmy compared with Conrad
<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berlinski" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berlinski</a>
 
mammutly said:
Anybody who believes that the natural world was created by a series of random accidents has lost the ability to think.

How arrogant is it to mock an explanation just because it doesn't meet your particular belief crteria.

God having created the natural world is actually more possible that it having evolved via millions upon millions of random events, some of which had more longevity than others. Simple probability theory will tell you that.


That is right. The greatest scientists around have lost their ability to think. As opposed to 6 year olds that are taught about creation in Genesis and go on believing that without question. For they are obviously the greater thinkers.

I feel sorry for you and for your need to have a "sky fairy" to make life seem worthwhile.

-- Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:13 pm --

mammutly said:
Anybody who believes that the natural world was created by a series of random accidents has lost the ability to think.

How arrogant is it to mock an explanation just because it doesn't meet your particular belief crteria.

God having created the natural world is actually more possible that it having evolved via millions upon millions of random events, some of which had more longevity than others. Simple probability theory will tell you that.


ps - How arrogant is it to suppose to tell anyone else what you believe your "god" did, or did not do?

You could not make it up.

EDIT: Actually, you could and they did (about 2000 years ago).<br /><br />-- Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:38 pm --<br /><br />
mammutly said:
Alas ! I shall have to cancel my clinics and resign my position!

My lack of scientific sophistication has rendered me useless.


:-(


No that IS worrying.

I hope to "god" I am never ill when you are around..

DO you find praying for your patients helps?
 
johnny crossan said:
ElanJo said:
Berlinski??

What arguments of his are you actually recommending? He's a bloody idiot.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fHrM_F6gg&feature=related[/youtube]


ah your good friend that world famous biologist and mathematician Conrad the Conman

conrad.jpg


check out his wide range of interests here!
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=conradleviston#g/u" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=conradleviston#g/u</a>

Which of his arguments are you recommending? No please don't tell me I know - all of them!

David Berlinski is an intellectual pigmy compared with Conrad
<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berlinski" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berlinski</a>

This is the only video I have watched of his so I couldn't possibly talk about anything other that this video (it wouldn't matter if he was interested in cannibalism - what matters is the video I posted). This video, and the ones linked, however shows that you don't need to be a world famous scientist to refute Berlinski's anti-evolutionary arguments. And it's no good being a mathematician if you don't understand evolution well enough in order to correctly formulate evolutionary calculations etc.

It hasn't gone unnoticed that you've ignored the points in the video and instead attacked the person making the points. Try again JC
 
SWP's back said:
mammutly said:
Anybody who believes that the natural world was created by a series of random accidents has lost the ability to think.

How arrogant is it to mock an explanation just because it doesn't meet your particular belief crteria.

God having created the natural world is actually more possible that it having evolved via millions upon millions of random events, some of which had more longevity than others. Simple probability theory will tell you that.

That is right. The greatest scientists around have lost their ability to think. As opposed to 6 year olds that are taught about creation in Genesis and go on believing that without question. For they are obviously the greater thinkers.

I feel sorry for you and for your need to have a "sky fairy" to make life seem worthwhile.

mammutly said:
Anybody who believes that the natural world was created by a series of random accidents has lost the ability to think.

How arrogant is it to mock an explanation just because it doesn't meet your particular belief crteria.

God having created the natural world is actually more possible that it having evolved via millions upon millions of random events, some of which had more longevity than others. Simple probability theory will tell you that.

ps - How arrogant is it to suppose to tell anyone else what you believe your "god" did, or did not do?

You could not make it up.

EDIT: Actually, you could and they did (about 2000 years ago).

mammutly said:
Alas ! I shall have to cancel my clinics and resign my position!

My lack of scientific sophistication has rendered me useless.
:-(
No that IS worrying.
I hope to "god" I am never ill when you are around..
DO you find praying for your patients helps?


Arrogant, offensive and ignorant in equal measure - here's what some of those "great" scientists used Darwin's theory for not that long ago -

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtz1yMOnWk[/youtube]

-- Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:45 pm --

ElanJo said:
Berlinski??
What arguments of his are you actually recommending? He's a bloody idiot.


ElanJo said:
It hasn't gone unnoticed that you've ignored the points in the video and instead attacked the person making the points. Try again JC

Yeah right - but ad hominem is so much more fun ain't it!
 
johnny crossan said:
Arrogant, offensive and ignorant in equal measure - here's what some of those "great" scientists used Darwin's theory for not that long ago -
He inflicted Abba on us! Debate over right there. Any man who unleashed Abba on the world has to be wrong.
 

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