Ilkay Gundogan - 2018/19 performances

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BigOscar said:
That's kind of my point, I wouldn't be looking to buy another midfielder if we were going with the 4 of the Bernie/Kev/Dave/Foden as that's more than enough. Maybe a young player to add depth (hell, Zinchenko would probably be front of the queue), but in that scenario, someone like Gundogan is excessive and frankly he'd be worth more to someone else than to us as a 5th choice who we have to keep finding excuses to play. I only mentioned the possibility of signing someone as an option if Dave left or something happened to make that 4 unviable.

At the moment, we have 3 players almost equal for those 2 positions, then Gundogan who is levels below them as 4th choice, then Foden who is probably still levels below him as 5th choice but with potential to be better, but in need of games to get there. That's fine for now, but as time goes on Foden needs to overtake him. We can't just let him stagnate as 5th choice until Dave leaves
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David 33 tomorrow:( time moving on so quickly. He’s being managed properly might get another great 18 months from him
 
BigOscar said:
That's kind of my point, I wouldn't be looking to buy another midfielder if we were going with the 4 of the Bernie/Kev/Dave/Foden as that's more than enough. Maybe a young player to add depth (hell, Zinchenko would probably be front of the queue), but in that scenario, someone like Gundogan is excessive and frankly he'd be worth more to someone else than to us as a 5th choice who we have to keep finding excuses to play. I only mentioned the possibility of signing someone as an option if Dave left or something happened to make that 4 unviable.

At the moment, we have 3 players almost equal for those 2 positions, then Gundogan who is levels below them as 4th choice, then Foden who is probably still levels below him as 5th choice but with potential to be better, but in need of games to get there. That's fine for now, but as time goes on Foden needs to overtake him. We can't just let him stagnate as 5th choice until Dave leaves
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Well, first I don't see Gundogan as 'levels below', he's a top class player who's lacking a bit of dynamism (compared to Kev and Bernardo) thanks to repeated injuries. At Silva's age that's a problem for him too and one that will get worse and imo very soon Gundogan will be clear 3rd choice whether Silva is still here or not.
That's when we will get a better idea of Foden's ceiling, if he can't overtake Silva and challenge Gundogan over the next 1 to 3 seasons he doesn't have a future here tbh. That might sound harsh but it's true, any player that isn't at a level to challenge for a first team squad spot on merit by 20/21 should leave.
If we sign someone else significantly better than Gundogan, ie KDB level, Foden doesn't have a hope and should leave. Bernardo and KDB haven't even hit their prime yet and the lad can't afford to wait around until he's 25 and KDB gets to where Silva is now. Lets face it, if Silva was 28 years old still Foden wouldn't have a future here. That's what you're asking for. 3 top class players in that position means he'll only be assured of making the bench when one of them is injured. That's stagnating.

Then there's squad balance, anyone significantly better than Gundogan will have their pick of top European clubs, as would Bernardo and Kev if they were unhappy and if we have 3 players in their 20s at that level for 2 positions then one will certainly look to leave. World class players expect to be key players for their clubs.
Then, we'll end up signing someone who's either at a good age and happy to come in when needed knowing they can't play every game (Silva), someone who's talented but a raw prospect (Foden) or someone who's a quality player in their prime but not quite world class who'll happily fight for starts from a squad spot (Gundogan).
You can't have 2 world class players in every position as world class players want to play, need to play to stay at that level and have top clubs fighting for their signature.
Hence we have 3 top class wingers at good ages for 2 positions with Diaz gone, 4 fullbacks including 2 utility players (tried to get rid of Zinchenko), an unhappy 2nd choice international keeper (before his injury), a mainstay backed up by a talented but raw prospect a decade younger at striker and we only get away with the depth we have at centre half and in centre midfield because of Vinny's age and fitness issues, Silva's age and Gundogan's injury problems.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Well, first I don't see Gundogan as 'levels below', he's a top class player who's lacking a bit of dynamism (compared to Kev and Bernardo) thanks to repeated injuries. At Silva's age that's a problem for him too and one that will get worse and imo very soon Gundogan will be clear 3rd choice whether Silva is still here or not.
That's when we will get a better idea of Foden's ceiling, if he can't overtake Silva and challenge Gundogan over the next 1 to 3 seasons he doesn't have a future here tbh. That might sound harsh but it's true, any player that isn't at a level to challenge for a first team squad spot on merit by 20/21 should leave.
If we sign someone else significantly better than Gundogan, ie KDB level, Foden doesn't have a hope and should leave. Bernardo and KDB haven't even hit their prime yet and the lad can't afford to wait around until he's 25 and KDB gets to where Silva is now. Lets face it, if Silva was 28 years old still Foden wouldn't have a future here. That's what you're asking for. 3 top class players in that position means he'll only be assured of making the bench when one of them is injured. That's stagnating.

Then there's squad balance, anyone significantly better than Gundogan will have their pick of top European clubs, as would Bernardo and Kev if they were unhappy and if we have 3 players in their 20s at that level for 2 positions then one will certainly look to leave. World class players expect to be key players for their clubs.
Then, we'll end up signing someone who's either at a good age and happy to come in when needed knowing they can't play every game (Silva), someone who's talented but a raw prospect (Foden) or someone who's a quality player in their prime but not quite world class who'll happily fight for starts from a squad spot (Gundogan).
You can't have 2 world class players in every position as world class players want to play, need to play to stay at that level and have top clubs fighting for their signature.
Hence we have 3 top class wingers at good ages for 2 positions with Diaz gone, 4 fullbacks including 2 utility players (tried to get rid of Zinchenko), an unhappy 2nd choice international keeper (before his injury), a mainstay backed up by a talented but raw prospect a decade younger at striker and we only get away with the depth we have at centre half and in centre midfield because of Vinny's age and fitness issues, Silva's age and Gundogan's injury problems.
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if you don't think Gundogan is levels below the other 3, then I guess that's where he differ. For me, those 3 are pretty interchangeable for the 2 positions, whereas bringing in Gundogan is a noticeable step down. It's not just lack of dynamism, it's a lack of genuine quality and decisiveness. He's far from average, but he lacks their outstanding quality. He's an Arsenal type, not a world beater.

I also disagree with the idea that having 3 top class players in that position would mean Foden is fucked, because we already have that currently and it hasn't stopped 4th choice Gundogan getting a shit load of game time. 3 top class players and one up and coming player for 2 positions isn't too much at all, hence why Gundogan is the odd one out in my opinion.
 
BigOscar said:
if you don't think Gundogan is levels below the other 3, then I guess that's where he differ. For me, those 3 are pretty interchangeable for the 2 positions, whereas bringing in Gundogan is a noticeable step down. It's not just lack of dynamism, it's a lack of genuine quality and decisiveness. He's far from average, but he lacks their outstanding quality. He's an Arsenal type, not a world beater.

I also disagree with the idea that having 3 top class players in that position would mean Foden is fucked, because we already have that currently and it hasn't stopped 4th choice Gundogan getting a shit load of game time. 3 top class players and one up and coming player for 2 positions isn't too much at all, hence why Gundogan is the odd one out in my opinion.
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Gundogan has only gotten that gametime as
-last season we missed out on a winger so Bernardo played as one and Dave missed half the season with Mateo.
-this season Kev has missed basically the entire season so far, Dave has had injuries, Bernardo has had injuries and Dinho has needed a rest as we don't actually have a backup for him.

So 4th choice has gotten significant gametime due to Silva having terrible personal issues outside football and Kev getting 2 bad injuries back to back, along with other injuries and problems in the transfer market.
That's a great future for Foden if we upgrade Gundogan.
 
BigOscar said:
When he leaves, we'll need someone to replace him as a genuine competitor to the two who start (Bernardo and Kev) and I don't see Gundogan ever being that player. Foden could be, but he won't if he spends the net 18 months sat behind Gundogan. (I wouldn't be that surprised if Dave signs for another year when the time comes, it's far from set in stone that he's leaving then)
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I think we have different views on Gundogan's value to the squad so there's probably no point going back over the same arguments being had by everyone time and time again about him. I think he's a top player and great to have in the squad but you don't think he's good enough. The main thing I was picking up on was you saying Silva won't be retiring in the next year or two. Going off what we've been told and what he's said himself, I think he'll be leaving us next May.
 
Mon Autre said:
I think we have different views on Gundogan's value to the squad so there's probably no point going back over the same arguments being had by everyone time and time again about him. I think he's a top player and great to have in the squad but you don't think he's good enough. The main thing I was picking up on was you saying Silva won't be retiring in the next year or two. Going off what we've been told and what he's said himself, I think he'll be leaving us next May.
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Even if Silva stays he's not going to be any challenge to Kev and Bernardo in their prime when he's 34/35 and I'll be surprised if he's not 5th choice behind Foden and Gundogan.
I mean, he's 33 tomorrow, we shouldn't kid ourselves.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Even if Silva stays he's not going to be any challenge to Kev and Bernardo in their prime when he's 34/35 and I'll be surprised if he's not 5th choice behind Foden and Gundogan.
I mean, he's 33 tomorrow, we shouldn't kid ourselves.
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Can’t see David ever being behind Gundogan at any age to be honest
 
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