Ilkay Gundogan - 2019/20 Performances

[Rolee]

Lol - I've completely read what you've said

If that's the case then why are you telling me we need to do something that I had said we need to do?

 

[ws01]

If that's the case then why are you telling me we need to do something that I had said we need to do?

I didn't say we need to do it. I just said I was happy with my analysis. That happens to include Gundogan's goals from CM.

You said it needs to be done, then contradicted yourself by saying a post comparing the two's attributes was a 'fair appraisal', despite it not having adjusted for positions played - again, something you said needs to be done, not me, probably because you didn't like the numbers favouring Fernandinho. You've also liked the post previously, which gives further strength to your contradiction.

 

[Rolee]

I didn't say we need to do it. I just said I was happy with my analysis. That happens to include Gundogan's goals from CM.

You said it needs to be done, then contradicted yourself by saying a post comparing the two's attributes was a 'fair appraisal', despite it not having adjusted for positions played - again, something you said needs to be done, not me, probably because you didn't like the numbers favouring Fernandinho. You've also liked the post previously, which gives further strength to your contradiction.

You didn't say this 'you're gonna have to discount the goals and assists'?

There is no contradiction either, WallyA said 'play the role differently'. The specific role so no adjusting for different roles.

 

[mccity]

I always ask myself (this season and last in fact) if there's ever a non-City fan lurking in these forums; the kind that thinks of Gundogan as being one of City's many ridiculously good backup players; who wonders to themselves why the hell has this random bench player got a thread twice as big as almost anyone else's excluding Foden.

 

[Dax777]

Sorry to disrupt your echo chamber here fellas, thought I'd bring some facts to the table instead.

Fernandinho v Gundogan - 2018/19 Premier League numbers (per 90 mins):

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

Attack:

Goals: Fernandinho 0.038, Gundogan 0.25
Assists: Fernandinho 0.11, Gundogan 0.13
Shots: Fernandinho 1.13, Gundogan 1.81
Shooting accuracy: Fernandinho 29.17%, Gundogan 39.29%
Shooting success: Fernandinho 3.33%, Gundogan 13.95%
Big chances created: Fernandinho 0.15, Gundogan 0.25

Passing

Passes: Fernandinho 77.50, Gundogan 84.06
Pass completion: Fernandinho 87.46%, Gundogan 90.82%
Passes forward: Fernandinho 22.04, Gundogan 17.11
Passes backwards: Fernandinho 9.3, Gundogan 15.22
Through balls: Fernandinho 0.49, Gundogan 0.72
Dispossessed: Fernandinho 0.49, Gundogan 0.63

Defending

Blocks: Fernandinho 0.15, Gundogan 0.13
Interceptions: Fernandinho 1.55, Gundogan 1.18
Tackles: Fernandinho 2.16, Gundogan 0.80
Tackles won: Fernandinho 1.63, Gundogan 0.51
Clearances: Fernandinho 2.61, Gundogan 0.76
Headed clearances: Fernandinho 1.78, Gundogan 0.38
Aerial battles won: Fernandinho 2.91, Gundogan 1.09
Goals conceded: Fernandinho 0.57, Gundogan 0.63
Distance run: Fernandinho 10.69km, Gundogan 11.31km

Discipline

Fouls: Fernandinho 1.51, Gundogan 0.55
Yellow cards: Fernandinho 0.19, Gundogan 0.13

Summary:

• Gundogan takes more shots, with greater accuracy and scores more. The difference in assists and chances created is small/negligible, in Gundogan's favour

• Gundogan passes more at higher accuracy, however is a much safer passer than Fernandinho who passes a lot more for forwards than Gundogan and a lot less backwards

• Almost every single defensive metric is in Fernandinho's favour, including interceptions, and many heavily. Despite this, Gundogan runs more per 90 minutes suggesting his positioning may be inferior

• Gundogan gives far less fouls away, however the difference in yellows received is very small and with neither player receiving a red. This enhances the notion that Fernandinho is a better 'tactical' fouler

All in all, that to me reads game set and match to Fernandinho. In the big games, when we need defensive solidity and physicality, it's Fernandinho in a no contest.

Your stats are right, your summary is at best clueless and at worst, biased.

Painful to read someone use stats so poorly :( Your types are the reason why many argue against the legitimacy of stats.

1 )You are comparing a Central Defender to a midfielder, right? That variable alone renders this a weak comparison

2) Your conclusions are horrible: Again, Gundogan makes more risky passes even if he passes backwards more. A majority of Dihno's forward passes are to Gundogan and the Fullbacks when ahead of him. So while it counts as a forward pass but has almost no risk. On the contrary, Gundogan (as the midfielder with the most space,) is charged with making riskier forward passes into the box to open up packed Defenses. Hence his chip passes and overhead dinks. Everyone knows this. You included. Yet you act otherwise.

3) You are one of those who like hiding facts in stats. But you can only get away with folks who don't pour over the facts themselves. Well I do.

The defensive disparities are mostly a function of Dihno playing CB and Gundogan playing midfield. The inverse can be said about Gundogan's advantage offensively.


4) Fraction ing the stats hid some obvious facts'. Gundo has played 10 games to Dihno's 7. Gundogan has attemoted 7 tackles and won 5, In those 20 games. Dihno on the other hand has attempted 9 tackles and won 5.

When you put the above in fractions, it simple suggests Dihnoni attempts more tackles and winnms more of them. Both true claims. But it hides the fact that Dihno fails at winning almost half his tackles. That Gundogan fails at fewer. And that they both have the same number of tackles for the season in spite of Dihno playing CB. It also fails to show how little tackling City does all together.

Gundogan has had 5 in 10 games and Dihno 5 in 7 games. The conclusion here is that we are almost always in possession.

Now the fact that Gundogan wins a significantly higher percentage of his attempted tackles doesn't tell me he is better than Dihno. But it suggests that the claim about his positional awareness.might have some validity.

That is, if you cared for the truth as opposed to your beliefs :)

 

[ws01]

Your stats are right, your summary is at best clueless and at worst, biased.

Painful to read someone use stats so poorly :( Your types are the reason why many argue against the legitimacy of stats.

1 )You are comparing a Central Defender to a midfielder, right? That variable alone renders this a weak comparison

2) Your conclusions are horrible: Again, Gundogan makes more risky passes even if he passes backwards more. A majority of Dihno's forward passes are to Gundogan and the Fullbacks when ahead of him. So while it counts as a forward pass but has almost no risk. On the contrary, Gundogan (as the midfielder with the most space,) is charged with making riskier forward passes into the box to open up packed Defenses. Hence his chip passes and overhead dinks. Everyone knows this. You included. Yet you act otherwise.

3) You are one of those who like hiding facts in stats. But you can only get away with folks who don't pour over the facts themselves. Well I do.

The defensive disparities are mostly a function of Dihno playing CB and Gundogan playing midfield. The inverse can be said about Gundogan's advantage offensively.


4) Fraction ing the stats hid some obvious facts'. Gundo has played 10 games to Dihno's 7. Gundogan has attemoted 7 tackles and won 5, In those 20 games. Dihno on the other hand has attempted 9 tackles and won 5.

When you put the above in fractions, it simple suggests Dihnoni attempts more tackles and winnms more of them. Both true claims. But it hides the fact that Dihno fails at winning almost half his tackles. That Gundogan fails at fewer. And that they both have the same number of tackles for the season in spite of Dihno playing CB. It also fails to show how little tackling City does all together.

Gundogan has had 5 in 10 games and Dihno 5 in 7 games. The conclusion here is that we are almost always in possession.

Now the fact that Gundogan wins a significantly higher percentage of his attempted tackles doesn't tell me he is better than Dihno. But it suggests that the claim about his positional awareness.might have some validity.

That is, if you cared for the truth as opposed to your beliefs :)

Fernandinho v Gundogan - 2018/19 Premier League numbers (per 90 mins):

Good Lord, you Gundogan lovers are pure punishment.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

Oh good , still running then ..................................................

 

[grim up north]

Why is 1 going on at great lengths to dis a player who is a serial winner

 

[mccity]

Fernandinho v Gundogan - 2018/19 Premier League numbers (per 90 mins):

Good Lord, you Gundogan lovers are pure punishment.

I agree. Folks like @Dax777 and @Rolee who use reason and understanding to defend a City player they don't hate is boring. What we need are more good folk like yourself going out of their way to mercilessly bash a City player at all costs, moving whatever goalposts they can and erecting as many straw men as possible in the process.

Good on you!

 

[ws01]

I agree. Folks like @Dax777 and @Rolee who use reason and understanding to defend a City player they don't hate is boring. What we need are more good folk like yourself going out of their way to mercilessly bash a City player at all costs, moving whatever goalposts they can and erecting as many straw men as possible in the process.

Good on you!

I haven't moved one goalpost, thanks. I've provided the stats over the course of an entire season where both players have only played in midfield, going out of my way to adjust the figures for every 90 minutes played to ensure that Gundogan isn't portrayed unfairly where he otherwise would be.

Supporters are entitled to their opinion, whether that be positive or negative, however those numbers are fact. People have made a claim that one player is better than another at a number of things during the course of a debate, I've provided clear evidence to the contrary. That people don't like it because it doesn't suit their agenda is not my problem.

And, hopefully after that De Gea like howler that is Dax's last post that should spell the end of it.... or until next game.