Iran Attack on Israel

[robbieh]

I've met tons of people like Robbie. They love to piss and moan about how evil the West is, from the comfortable bosom of living in said evil free western democracy where criticising your government doesn't get you executed.

Look at George Galloway. He'll take Russian money and do chat shows on RT but funny how he doesn't want to actually live there.

You seem to think just because a country is democratic that it's behaviour on the international stage is always better than non democratic actors. So whilst I agree with you that living in the West is more pleasant from the point of view of being able to express your opinions freely that doesn't mean we can't put our country's present and past under the microscope.
I'll make an analogy. I'm probably better placed to praise and criticize my friends who I know well than people I've never met.

 

[meltonblue]

It's like saying Hitler wasn't bad because many countries in Europe and worldwide thought he was OK, it's a false argument and just stop it :)

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Good guys bad guys is indoctrinated into us. Most Americans a 150 years ago would have thought the native Americans were the bad guys and were therefore fair game.

China seem to be the bad guys now although compared with many western countries they've not invaded anyone.

Using history as one’s guide, I’m hopeful that even a smattering of education informs the answer.

Much as I’m able to place events into their historical perspective, I’d like to believe “invading someone” is not the only threshold for “good guy” or “bad guy.”

 

[Rory Bluelow]

Good guys bad guys is indoctrinated into us. Most Americans a 150 years ago would have thought the native Americans were the bad guys and were therefore fair game.

China seem to be the bad guys now although compared with many western countries they've not invaded anyone.

Regarding China. They’ve annexed Tibet and smashed its culture. They’ve not just gone in half-arsed and fucked it up, they’ve swallowed it whole !

 

[robbieh]

Regarding China. They’ve annexed Tibet and smashed its culture. They’ve not just gone in half-arsed and fucked it up, they’ve swallowed it whole !

Fair point and I as said elsewhere it's easier to see the faults of those close to you.

 

[inbetween]

I've met tons of people like Robbie. They love to piss and moan about how evil the West is, from the comfortable bosom of living in said evil free western democracy where criticising your government doesn't get you executed.

Look at George Galloway. He'll take Russian money and do chat shows on RT but funny how he doesn't want to actually live there.

I think the issue is that at heart people are well intentioned when they criticise the west because it actually makes sense in a lot of ways because what the CIA and others have done over many years has been in places abhorrent.

However, the naivety of people is they believe that the west is doing X and everybody else isn't. This is almost always not true, the Russian SVR/FSB and Iranian equivalents are doing the exact same thing as the CIA or whoever. These organisations are all one and the same, there is no good or bad.

Ultimately what this comes down to are fundamental differences over our system of economy and government. These people are often socialists who have to align to the world axis that opposes systems such as capitalism and therefore that can only mean opposing the west at every corner.

This is why the Socialist Worker marches thousands every weekend for Palestine but it cannot muster a single person to do the same for Ukraine. Ukraine has been under occupation since 2014 and thousands of civilians have died under an imperialistic attack from Russia, it is fairly similar to what Israel is doing so where are the protests?

There are no protests because of the simple fact that Ukraine has chosen to align to the west. There is no political collateral for these people to put any energy into protesting for Ukraine, so they don't. Instead they criticise the only thing that is stopping Ukraine from falling and that is NATO.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

I think the issue is that at heart people are well intentioned when they criticise the west because it actually makes sense in a lot of ways because what the CIA and others have done over many years has been in places abhorrent.

However, the naivety of people is they believe that the west is doing X and everybody else isn't. This is almost always not true, the Russian SVR/FSB and Iranian equivalents are doing the exact same thing as the CIA or whoever. These organisations are all one and the same, there is no good or bad.

Ultimately what this comes down to are fundamental differences over our system of economy and government. These people are often socialists who have to align to the world axis that opposes systems such as capitalism and therefore that can only mean opposing the west at every corner.

This is why the Socialist Worker marches thousands every weekend for Palestine but it cannot muster a single person to do the same for Ukraine. Ukraine has been under occupation since 2014 and thousands of civilians have died under an imperialistic attack from Russia, it is fairly similar to what Israel is doing so where are the protests?

There are no protests because of the simple fact that Ukraine has chosen to align to the west. There is no political collateral for these people to put any energy into protesting for Ukraine, so they don't. Instead they criticise the only thing that is stopping Ukraine from falling and that is NATO.

I agree with much of that but I don't agree that "there is no good or bad."

Western liberal democracy is not perfect, capitalism is not perfect and Western governments have done bad things, of course they have, but compared to the alternative I sleep very soundly at night knowing that on the grand scheme of things we are definitely on the right side of history. The governments of places like Russia and Iran are fundamentally evil oppressive regimes which is not the case here.

There's no convincing some people though and your observation about the socialist types and Ukraine is a depressing and valid one.

 

[Vic]

I agree. What’s your point? Iran are apparently supplying drones to Russia. Surely that should be called out and is relevant to this discussion. Same with America, uk and other countries doing similar

Iran are also directly funding terrorist groups, yet you ignored that bit of my post.

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[mackenzie]

Really hoping that the Israel announcement soon is not one of retaliation/escalation. This surely has to be a pivotal moment.

 

[ted the grass]

Really hoping that the Israel announcement soon is not one of retaliation/escalation. This surely has to be a pivotal moment.

hope you are right. Old Testament goes with 'an eye for an eye' unfortunately.