Iran

[Metalartin]

If any of my post about Saudi or Iran is untrue then let me know.

I suppose it's more a case that I feel you and others are displaying double standards. You labelled one a "terrorist state" but by your own standards you'd have to label Iran the same, with the information I provided. Let me guess one side is all propaganda and the other all true?

I’m not asking about what the press spoon feeds us. I’m asking why you refer to them as allies.

As far as I can make out, we buy their oil and they buy our missiles and war planes. It’s hardly a alliance built on moral principles.

Saudi Arabia stands for nothing that we believe makes the West civilised. There’s no freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of elections, freedom of sexuality or gender.

KSA is a medieval feudal dictatorship that clings to power through internal terror and religious indoctrination.

During the Second World War neither the US nor Russia was our ally until until Germany attacked both. One then remained our ally whilst the other immediately became an enemy once the usefulness of our help was diminished. This is because they were diametrically opposed to our political ideals and our way of life. Saudi Arabia is the same but at present we are still semi useful to them.

I’m not arguing that we don’t need need allies in any way shape of form. I’m arguing that we should be pickier in choosing who we go to bed with. Iran has more ideologically and politically in common with the west and has caused less disharmony on western shores.

This will be the last reply.

I think I displayed with one of the answers you already got from me, that oil, wealth, security strategies could all play a part in why the USA and UK consider them an ally.

You seem to arguing that one "terrorist state" is better than the other. Iran don't want to be allies, so we can't pick them even if we wanted to is the point I made. I also don't see the point in the USA/UK switching which terrorist state it considers it's ally.

As for Iran's values and freedoms being better/more inline with the west. Why do you believe this? That's a bold statement and not what the information I have(human freedom index) points to, which suggests there's barely anything between them.
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato....ex-files/human-freedom-index-2018-revised.pdf

Iran
Personal Freedom Rank 154

Religious Freedom - 4.3
Expression and Information - 5.4
Identity and Relationships - 3.0 * Seems a lot higher but divorce and legal gender are the only two criteria that made this up, 0 for same sex marriage and parental rights.


Saudi Arabia
Personal Freedom Rank 155

Religious Freedom - 3.2
Expression and Information - 5.8
Identity and Relationships - 0.0

Iran do appear slightly better but not anywhere near to the extent you suggested, hence them being next to each other in the rankings.

Again I'm not saying Saudi aren't cunts but clearly so are Iran.

 

[SWP's back]

I suppose it's more a case that I feel you and others are displaying double standards. You labelled one a "terrorist state" but by your own standards you'd have to label Iran the same, with information I provided. Let me guess one side is all propaganda and the other all true?

Not what I’m saying at all. Again I was answering your question as to why I would support Saudi over Iran. It’s a personal preference based on experience.

I’d support North Korea or Liverpool over Saudi Arabia as I don’t like the place and I very much disagree with state sponsored export of Wahhabi Islam.

Again I'm not saying Saudi aren't cunts but clearly so are Iran.

At least I’ve enabled you to move from “no angels” to “cunts”.

 

[FlemishDuck]

You seem to arguing that one "terrorist state" is better than the other.

I want to make a note: Iran isn't really a terrorist state, no'r is KSA for that matter but the reason to associate with it is different.

Iran has been called a terrorist state for supporting groups that have been labelled terrorist by the west or atleast primarily Israel. But Israel can sodd off with their discriptions imho as about anyone that would fight against their belligerent and arrogant tactics would be a terrorist. A freedom fighter isn't nessecarily a terrorist simply for using assymetric warfare, remember that kamikaze's were not considered terrorists regardless of the suicide attacks. It's a war, it's not nessecarily ours.

For the rest Iran is a fairly peacefull country that stays out of someone else it's bussiness and which has been the target of all sorts of foreign meddling scheme's not the least from "the usual suspects". The regime is shit yes but from a respect of foreign relations the only reason we are against Iran is because in general our politicians just can't help accepting bribes from the likes of SA and Israel. But i frankly don't give a flying Flamingo for the interrests of SA and Israel, why should we?

 

[Metalartin]

I want to make a note: Iran isn't really a terrorist state, no'r is KSA for that matter but the reason to associate with it is different

It was said with quote marks mostly, as someone used the phrase first to make their point, it was sarcasm but I guess it's time to let that one go. If you read the link I provided, you'll see they are no better than Saudi Arabia at the end of the day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

I doubt I would be wrong in saying you've never been to Iran, you're going off what you've read which is at odds with what I have to call them "peaceful"(interesting summarisation of the Hezbollah btw...). As I said, if you remove Iran from the equation, things would no longer make sense, if it's a proxy war who is on they other side of KSA? I prefer to look at things logically, instead of emotionally in things like this. In other words, maybe Saudi are just mental and didn't want the Houthi movement to gain control just because... or maybe they know more about this than we do and they are indeed a proxy for Iran on their doorstep. Not that what they've done is justifiable, they've gone way too far and the innocent are suffering but Iran have played a big part in this in my opinion.

What I will say is Iran play "the game" much better than Saudi Arabia, they are aligned with Russia who are the masters of it(and America to be fair). They do their dirty work behind the scenes and know it's smarter to keep their name out of things as much as possible, or at least make it hard for anyone to pin anything on them outright.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement

Former Yemeni president Ali Abdullah Saleh had accused the Houthis of having ties to external backers, in particular the Iranian government.[131] Saleh stated in a New York Times' interview that "The real reason they received unofficial support from Iran was because they repeat same slogan that is raised by Iran death to America, death to Israel"

Nobody is defending KSA and quite rightly, they are cunts but it surprises me to see people make out Iran's hands are clean in this.

The point of me saying so, wasn't to imply America should start a war, I certainly don't want that. Only that to expect no involvement at all(diplomatic) is naive and would probably be dangerous. There are no "good guys" in this, they(Iran and KSA) have been at each other for a while now, either one of them winning and taking that much control(probably wont happen but it has been theorised here) in the region could be the start of something nobody wants.

Please stop insisting on searching for "the win" in this, I've said I don't want any further participation in this discussion(not really got much else to add). I have my opinion you have yours, lets be happy with that.

 

[urban genie]

I doubt we will see a war, but then trump is a fucking loon so who knows

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

I doubt we will see a war, but then trump is a fucking loon so who knows

I’m not sure a war with Iran is on his agenda with an election next year. I think if they were going to do anything they would have done it already. He probably had a option on the oil price and made another few million.

 

[SWP's back]

Worth having a read of ‘Proof of Collusion’ by Seth Abramson to see why Iran is under so much pressure when there were being welcomed back into the modern world under Obama:

 

[SWP's back]

I’m not sure a war with Iran is on his agenda with an election next year.

Because no politician has ever seen a jump in the polls following a small war...

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

Because no politician has ever seen a jump in the polls following a small war...

War with Iran won't be small though it will have devastating effects for the entire region and the world with petrol prices. In poor or third world countries even a small surge in petrol prices increases inflation which really effects the weak segment of such countries.

War with Afghanistan was supposed to be small but its still going strong after 18 years. The lollipop of sanctions is a strong one for Russia but along with China they would oppose it strongly as both have significant regional interest.

 

[FCBarca]

The US chooses it's bombing opponents very shrewdly, avoiding strong adversaries. Iran has been strangled by sanctions but they are not weak opposition and no military advisor can possibly be a proponent of a protracted war with them