Irish Current Affairs

Newman Noggs said:
I don't disagree with this, I just wonder what the point would be of a union at all.

4 different parliaments, 8 if we include 4 regions, what are the chances of getting them all to agree on anything ? Particularly with all the various self-interest groups operating constantly against each other.

Setting aside the general hatred of the English, the Conservatives and the sectarian rivalries, it boils down to control and distribution of the money. Unless you devolve collection of taxes and distribution of it within the collection area to those 4-8 governments there will be even more rivalries and division.

I understand the clamour for greater and greater division in the name of "equality", it's pervading every walk of life. I just can't see where the common ground lies.

In my view, we're careering towards the break-up of the union not because of any specific identifiable benefit from doing so or due to the actions of any particular group of people but because it's the way society is headed and it's the path of least resistance.
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No general hatred of the English, stop believing that crap. Its Tories we hate, our Scottish ones even more.
 
Newman Noggs said:
I don't disagree with this, I just wonder what the point would be of a union at all.

4 different parliaments, 8 if we include 4 regions, what are the chances of getting them all to agree on anything ? Particularly with all the various self-interest groups operating constantly against each other.
Click to expand...
Switzerland make it work with 18 regional parliaments and direct democracy in each whilst dealing with far greater cultural divergences (they don't even share a common language). Germany is a federation of 16 equal states. While there's a chance it might lead to the eventual breakup of the UK anyway I'd suggest ignoring the regions would also do that (see Irish Home Rule).
 
Newman Noggs said:
I don't disagree with this, I just wonder what the point would be of a union at all.

4 different parliaments, 8 if we include 4 regions, what are the chances of getting them all to agree on anything ? Particularly with all the various self-interest groups operating constantly against each other.

Setting aside the general hatred of the English, the Conservatives and the sectarian rivalries, it boils down to control and distribution of the money. Unless you devolve collection of taxes and distribution of it within the collection area to those 4-8 governments there will be even more rivalries and division.

I understand the clamour for greater and greater division in the name of "equality", it's pervading every walk of life. I just can't see where the common ground lies.

In my view, we're careering towards the break-up of the union not because of any specific identifiable benefit from doing so or due to the actions of any particular group of people but because it's the way society is headed and it's the path of least resistance.
Click to expand...
The point is for the country to be stronger and more affluent by speaking with one voice on the world stage, whereas at home the differing needs of the various parts of the country would be looked after by devolved administrations, in much the same way as all federalised countries operate such as the USA, Russia, Canada, Brazil, Australia, India, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Germany, Malaysia, Mexico, Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates. Nearly all the largest, richest and most influential countries in the world with the notable exception of China operate with that model, as well as quite a few smaller ones.
 
With Phil passing, I have a feeling petrol bombing and attacking the Queens Constables might be stood down tonight.
 
Well, we are having to leave work early today due to organised, planned protests across the City from 5pm.

yay :-|
 
aguero93:20 said:
Switzerland make it work with 18 regional parliaments and direct democracy in each whilst dealing with far greater cultural divergences (they don't even share a common language). Germany is a federation of 16 equal states. While there's a chance it might lead to the eventual breakup of the UK anyway I'd suggest ignoring the regions would also do that (see Irish Home Rule).
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On the Irish Home Rule point, that’s the bit I always wonder about when Loyalism looks at the violence of the IRA years.
Do they see history the same way we do down south.
I don’t mean to be incendiary as I fully appreciate the posts of @ob and others from the North. I don’t consider myself particularly nationalistic, and try to look at things objectively and see it from both sides.
But I fundamentally see the rejection of democracy and Home rule 100+ years ago, by unionists as a direct cause for the setting up of the NI state, with borders that were basically gerrymandered around six counties and a promise by UK government to hold a border commission which never happened.
Carson threatened violence and that threat was very real.

What happened later starting from civil right marches and resulting in a vicious IRA campaign is not right in anyone’s mind but it was the same mentality that caused the state to be set up in the first place.
Some Loyalists see the GFA as caving in to the IRA. I’d guess most of the island see the setting up of Northern Ireland as a Tory government caving in to unionism. There should have been a devolved government. That is what was voted for.

NI is celebrating 100 years in existence this year. I say celebrating. I think this is going to be incendiary again. It’ll be triumphalism again. One side pushing the other’s nose in it.

There have been countless mistakes on both sides of the community and both sides of the border. But is threatening violence again or ignoring democracy either now or in the future really the only way that certain elements still have of expressing their feelings?
There really is an onus on my generation and those slightly younger to educate our own kids, that this is not the way.
Regardless of everyone’s past there is a moral imperative from both nationalist and unionist and everyone in between to look at things from outside their own world.
I personally think the next generation’s most pressing problems will be global anyway and being insular just won’t work.
 
ob said:
I usually stay out of these discussions but agree with most of this as how people feel. My background is a Protestant from Coleraine (largely loyalist/protestant town but with an area of growing nationalist verging on republican views). My sister still lives in family home in the nationalist area. I have good friends who are councillors on the local council representative of protestant community and also independents, also know people who've been in jail for murder and attempted murder. Shooting and bombing, also had friends murdered and others died (some by their own bombs) Guys I went to school with and known for 50 years. Got my ear to the ground as what's happening on the streets. Been attacked numerous times when visiting my sister purely because I'm a Protestant walking in that area. I refuse to stop walking round there but noticed it's got worse in last 20/30 years. I would only walk during day and not in darkness. On other hand my son (aged 23) been threatened on more than one occasion by local UDA where he lives just outside the town. I've had to make phone calls and call in favours to get the threats rescinded and also reported to police. The threat's from nationalists side to me and family come from local drug gang, the leader is known tout who has 100s of convictions drives numerous expensive flash cars but never spent any time of length in prison, his son similar story. So I know what's going on on the ground. The locals in Coleraine of loyalist community feel like those in interview and to me anger should be directed to their political parties for lack of leadership from day 1. Most people don't vote on local issues but 'to keep the other ones out' (that's on both sides). There is too but much what about them uns (on both sides). I sent message to friend here in London last night he asked me why it was happening and I replied on loyalist side been brewing for months, the police attitude to Bobby storeys funeral, 2 tier policing, no confidence in police or government (local or national), failure of Good Friday agreement, the implementation of Irish sea border. That's feeling on ground in all protestant area's. Add to that almost nightly attacks on homes from nationalists in West Belfast (I am friends with community workers on the ground in areas and it is happening on regular basis). Also attacks from protestants on nationalist homes (both are wrong on all levels) some of the protestants are also being riled by criminal elements and drug lords as they are being hounded by the police and youths then sent to cause destruction. On a personal level although I miss home with all my heart feel safer walking round London at night (been here 20 years) than I would taking 15 minute walk from local to my sister's. I have been there seen it got the t shirt for protesting and think its a right of everyone to be able to do so in a peaceful manner. In my youth during worst of troubles I took part in plenty of them but never ever attacked anyone or anything. One of the reasons is that would take away the legitimacy of protest, another I wouldn't want anyone doing that to me or family or property. My father would have battered me, I also had decent job which gave me freedom to do things, most of all pay to travel to watch City. Sorry turned into post lot longer than intended
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Proper interesting post , fair fucks
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
On the Irish Home Rule point, that’s the bit I always wonder about when Loyalism looks at the violence of the IRA years.
Do they see history the same way we do down south.
I don’t mean to be incendiary as I fully appreciate the posts of @ob and others from the North. I don’t consider myself particularly nationalistic, and try to look at things objectively and see it from both sides.
But I fundamentally see the rejection of democracy and Home rule 100+ years ago, by unionists as a direct cause for the setting up of the NI state, with borders that were basically gerrymandered around six counties and a promise by UK government to hold a border commission which never happened.
Carson threatened violence and that threat was very real.

What happened later starting from civil right marches and resulting in a vicious IRA campaign is not right in anyone’s mind but it was the same mentality that caused the state to be set up in the first place.
Some Loyalists see the GFA as caving in to the IRA. I’d guess most of the island see the setting up of Northern Ireland as a Tory government caving in to unionism. There should have been a devolved government. That is what was voted for.

NI is celebrating 100 years in existence this year. I say celebrating. I think this is going to be incendiary again. It’ll be triumphalism again. One side pushing the other’s nose in it.

There have been countless mistakes on both sides of the community and both sides of the border. But is threatening violence again or ignoring democracy either now or in the future really the only way that certain elements still have of expressing their feelings?
There really is an onus on my generation and those slightly younger to educate our own kids, that this is not the way.
Regardless of everyone’s past there is a moral imperative from both nationalist and unionist and everyone in between to look at things from outside their own world.
I personally think the next generation’s most pressing problems will be global anyway and being insular just won’t work.
Click to expand...
amen to that sir.
 
I hear Buckingham Palace are asking Sinn Fein to organise Phillip's funeral.....

On a lighter note, at least there has been an increase in funny whatsapp messages...(un)fortunately the video sizes are too big for the forum :-)
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
So were the riots/protests postponed for Phil?
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Unfortunately not, idiots out blocking roads and attacking police in my home town of Coleraine and clashes between sides in Belfast at New lodge and Tigers Bay. Couple of local councillors I know personally were out trying to stop it in Coleraine. Happened near my friends house and he lost his mother yesterday.
 
seems that the last week over 70 PSNI officers have been injured in the rioting. Brandon Lewis flew in for talks and flew out as soon as he could. Johnson is just blanking it as is Patel whereas a few women at a vigil pose and existential threat to the UK and there must be action taken to stop it. Funny thing is you get 20 immigrants in a dinghy in the channels and she'd be on the shingle beach binoculars in hand giving interviews to anyone who wants to hear it.
 
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bluethrunthru said:
seems that the last week over 70 PSNI officers have been injured in the rioting. Brandon Lewis flew in for talks and flew out as soon as he could. Johnson is just blanking it as is Patel whereas a few women at a vigil pose and existential threat to the UK and there must be action taken to stop it. Funny thing is you get 20 immigrants in a dinghy in the channels and she'd be on the shingle beach binoculars in hand giving interviews to anyone who wants to hear it.
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88 injured. Quite a long way down the list of stories on the BBC. Anyone would think they might be worried about future funding.
 
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west didsblue said:
88 injured. Quite a long way down the list of stories on the BBC. Anyone would think they might be worried about future funding.
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Same with just about all news outlets - there seems to be only C4 News and Newsnight who will ask the questions and thats easily dodged by the govt - just don't offer anyone up for interview.

Sir Alan Duncan's memoirs get little mention too - can't imagine why.
 
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