Irish Current Affairs

Its almost as if people think that if there was a Border poll everything will be OK.

Some speak of just giving NI back to the Irish....as if its theirs to give away

Some speak of a vote for a United Ireland will make all the terrorist problems go away

The Irish situation is separate from that of Brexit. It goes back much much further....it is not a solution to Brexit. You think it is because it doesnt serve what you want.
 
blueinsa said:
As a unionist i dont want to lose NI from the UK, the people of NI should be the ones to decide their own fate.
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This point though....thats proper bullshit...there is literally no consequence to you if there were a United Ireland. Essentially i am a Unionist, i (for some god-foresaken reason) want to remain part of the UK.....so the outcome of a United Ireland are absolutely huge for me
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Its almost as if people think that if there was a Border poll everything will be OK.

Some speak of just giving NI back to the Irish....as if its theirs to give away

Some speak of a vote for a United Ireland will make all the terrorist problems go away

The Irish situation is separate from that of Brexit. It goes back much much further....it is not a solution to Brexit. You think it is because it doesnt serve what you want.
Click to expand...
You know Alex, we come from different sides of the divide and different backgrounds, but I 100% support your view on this whole debacle.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Its almost as if people think that if there was a Border poll everything will be OK.

Some speak of just giving NI back to the Irish....as if its theirs to give away

Some speak of a vote for a United Ireland will make all the terrorist problems go away

The Irish situation is separate from that of Brexit. It goes back much much further....it is not a solution to Brexit. You think it is because it doesnt serve what you want.
Click to expand...

You've just explained why I don't care about what happens over there, independence will cause terrorism, doing nothing will cause terrorism as for terrorism we have had it daily weekly monthly for decades now.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
This is not a slight on you specifically, but this is just a fuckin cop out.

Send in the troops you say?....i think they tried that before...dont think it had a very good outcome.

Forcing a reunification poll / border poll is NOT the answer....there is no desire for it as its far too close to call. A border poll cannot be used as a solution to Brexit....they are two VERY different issues.

All you, and many are saying is...oh shit we have a huge unaccounted for problem, that we brought....however if we just deflect it back on to them, we can wash our hands of it and say it was "the will of the people".

Essentially you are saying that the people of NI have to decide the outcome of Brexit whilst being forced to reignite all of the grief of the past. Its not on.
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I wasn't saying send in the troops but yes, absolutely id use the SAS and similar units covertly where needed to eliminate threats to ordinary citizens lives and safety.

As for a future ref on the question of the border/membership of the EU then someone will have to decide and who better than the people of NI? Would you sooner Westminster decided for you as that also isn't going to work.

Essentially I am saying its for the people of NI to decide if they want to continue being within and under EU rules for trade which treats the whole of Ireland as one.

My point was if the vote was to do that then its almost a defacto vote for reunification or at least a marker as to the feeling towards it.

Whats clear is the issue of the border isn't one that is going to stop the UK leaving the EU so solutions no matter how imperfect are going to have to be found and agreed upon and treating the whole of Ireland as one for trade seems about right because its no different to what you have now and its what you all seemingly want?

That said im not from or living there and i hope the above doesnt come across as disrespectful because it isn't meant to be.
 
mexico1970 said:
You've just explained why I don't care about what happens over there, independence will cause terrorism, doing nothing will cause terrorism as for terrorism we have had it daily weekly monthly for decades now.
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you've had terrorism daily, weekly, monthly have you?

nice
 
blueinsa said:
I wasn't saying send in the troops but yes, absolutely id use the SAS and similar units covertly where needed to eliminate threats to ordinary citizens lives and safety.

As for a future ref on the question of the border/membership of the EU then someone will have to decide and who better than the people of NI? Would you sooner Westminster decided for you as that also isn't going to work.

Essentially I am saying its for the people of NI to decide if they want to continue being within and under EU rules for trade which treats the whole of Ireland as one.

My point was if the vote was to do that then its almost a defacto vote for reunification or at least a marker as to the feeling towards it.

Whats clear is the issue of the border isn't one that is going to stop the UK leaving the EU so solutions no matter how imperfect are going to have to be found and agreed upon and treating the whole of Ireland as one for trade seems about right because its no different to what you have now and its what you all seemingly want?

That said im not from or living there and i hope the above doesn't come across as disrespectful because it isn't meant to be.
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BI there's nothing wrong in your point of view, in my opinion. It is a logical way out of the backstop, but what Alex is saying is that the border poll was never envisaged as a mechanism to sort a Brexit problem. It may seem like the answer, but depending on the outcome it will either be a nice walkaway option for England/Britain (look at previous post, a lot would love nothing more), or condemn the nationalist community and maybe others to defining themselves as British forever. That's not what it was designed for either.

As I and Alex have both stated numerous times they are two entirely different things.

Currently, I do believe that the red lines in the GFA have to be adhered to but like your suggestion highlighted above, I see that as a starting point.
If any UK government is sincere in sorting this element out then an extension is needed and the same care and thought needs to go into legally binding GFA red lines into a solution/decision that arises, both ways from a referendum on what essentially is still Brexit. (Not the re-Unification of Ireland)
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
BI there's nothing wrong in your point of view, in my opinion. It is a logical way out of the backstop, but what Alex is saying is that the border poll was never envisaged as a mechanism to sort a Brexit problem. It may seem like the answer, but depending on the outcome it will either be a nice walkaway option for England/Britain (look at previous post, a lot would love nothing more), or condemn the nationalist community and maybe others to defining themselves as British forever. That's not what it was designed for either.

As I and Alex have both stated numerous times they are two entirely different things.

Currently, I do believe that the red lines in the GFA have to be adhered to but like your suggestion highlighted above, I see that as a starting point.
If any UK government is sincere in sorting this element out then an extension is needed and the same care and thought needs to go into legally binding GFA red lines into a solution/decision that arises, both ways from a referendum on what essentially is still Brexit. (Not the re-Unification of Ireland)
Click to expand...

I am going to back out of this for the day as i dont want to cause upset or come across as disrespectful.
 
blueinsa said:
I wasn't saying send in the troops but yes, absolutely id use the SAS and similar units covertly where needed to eliminate threats to ordinary citizens lives and safety.

As for a future ref on the question of the border/membership of the EU then someone will have to decide and who better than the people of NI? Would you sooner Westminster decided for you as that also isn't going to work.

Essentially I am saying its for the people of NI to decide if they want to continue being within and under EU rules for trade which treats the whole of Ireland as one.

My point was if the vote was to do that then its almost a defacto vote for reunification or at least a marker as to the feeling towards it.

Whats clear is the issue of the border isn't one that is going to stop the UK leaving the EU so solutions no matter how imperfect are going to have to be found and agreed upon and treating the whole of Ireland as one for trade seems about right because its no different to what you have now and its what you all seemingly want?

That said im not from or living there and i hope the above doesnt come across as disrespectful because it isn't meant to be.
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i know you arent being disrespectful...genuinely.

I dont know the answer to the question...but if NI vote to remain in the EU but also vote to remain as part of the UK (the most likely scenario) what happens then?

This is mostly in response to your comment of we wont let terrorism influence what we do. My comment is that terrorism is coming (back)...regardless. That isnt supporting, defending, condoning....thats stating fact
 
blueinsa said:
I am going to back out of this for the day as i dont want to cause upset or come across as disrespectful.
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I don't find your view disrespectful.
I'd rather have your engagement on a solution, knowing your background and viewpoint on terrorism, than willful ignorance and apathy.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
i know you arent being disrespectful...genuinely.

I dont know the answer to the question...but if NI vote to remain in the EU but also vote to remain as part of the UK (the most likely scenario) what happens then?

This is mostly in response to your comment of we wont let terrorism influence what we do. My comment is that terrorism is coming (back)...regardless. That isnt supporting, defending, condoning....thats stating fact
Click to expand...

In the first instance id say for trade nothing changes and the whole of Ireland is treated as one, like it is now and how it will be if this deal is agreed.

On terrorism as per the article you put up, cross border security and the people of Ireland rejecting it will be needed and a zero tolerance from security services shown to the few that think they can commit terrorist acts, regardless of what side they proclaim to be on.
 
blueinsa said:
In the first instance id say for trade nothing changes and the whole of Ireland is treated as one, like it is now and how it will be if this deal is agreed.

On terrorism as per the article you put up, cross border security and the people of Ireland rejecting it will be needed and a zero tolerance from security services shown to the few that think they can commit terrorist acts, regardless of what side they proclaim to be on.
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I think most of the UK/GB see Brexit as a political and economic decision...which it is. However the Irish "issue" is cultural, religious as well.

The vast majority of people in Ireland, as a whole, will unequivocally renounce violence and terrorism, but that doesnt stop it happening.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
The vast majority of people in Ireland, as a whole, will unequivocally renounce violence and terrorism, but that doesnt stop it happening.
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Agree but its why i feel a democratic vote shouldn't ignored because of the feelings of a few that dont give a fuck about the EU or you and I and just their own, criminal selves.

Deal with them for what they are.
 
blueinsa said:
In the first instance id say for trade nothing changes and the whole of Ireland is treated as one, like it is now and how it will be if this deal is agreed.

On terrorism as per the article you put up, cross border security and the people of Ireland rejecting it will be needed and a zero tolerance from security services shown to the few that think they can commit terrorist acts, regardless of what side they proclaim to be on.
Click to expand...

I never ever really thought I would see a United Ireland in my lifetime. Not that I saw it as being kept from us, just that when we voted down here to change our constitution and sign up to the GFA, any future settlement in my mind would have to be along the lines of dual citizenship. When talking of the Irish side having to compromise in a Brexit deal, I just feel that the full extent of the compromises from both communities in the North and the South are just not fully appreciated by those demanding it.

I didn't see a border poll arising, maybe never in the rest of my lifetime, or certainly not until the current generation of (rightly or wrongly) embittered politicians are gone.
A couple of generations of non sectarian living, I figured and then maybe approach it. But regardless of the outcome, I saw the unionist community of still having the self-determination guaranteed within the GFA. Some sort of dual citizenship would need to be accommodated. There would need to be a mechanism to opt back into the UK if later generations chose to. That to me keeps NI as a separate country which was palatable for moderate Unionism to sign up to.

I could be wrong but a Brexit referendum in the North on EU alignment seems in contradiction to this.
It's not an insurmountable obstacle. It could be addressed with the will to do it, I'm sure. But given the nature of how the GFA was meticulously put together can you not see that the time frame for realistic engagement on the subject is sadly lacking.

The unfortunate truth also is that there were many at the time who believed and stated that the UK government's word is worth nothing.
Rightly or wrongly whatever outcome is enforced upon NI will be seen by elements including those who were persuaded to compromise as a vindication of that viewpoint.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
i know you arent being disrespectful...genuinely.

I dont know the answer to the question...but if NI vote to remain in the EU but also vote to remain as part of the UK (the most likely scenario) what happens then?

This is mostly in response to your comment of we wont let terrorism influence what we do. My comment is that terrorism is coming (back)...regardless. That isnt supporting, defending, condoning....thats stating fact
Click to expand...
Makes grim reading that Alex. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're suggesting is even if common sense prevails and the GFA becomes the ultimate red line in many ways it's too late and the genie is out of the bottle?
 
Postman Pep said:
Makes grim reading that Alex. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're suggesting is even if common sense prevails and the GFA becomes the ultimate red line in many ways it's too late and the genie is out of the bottle?
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It was never fully in the bottle....all this is more reason for it to increase....a (poor) excuse.

Linking to the brexit thread, its all well and good to say "we wont be held to terrorists"...but wilfully and scornfully trashing the Irish economy wont help. :-|
 
Armchair Supporter said:


Very much so!
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Wonderful .
Until they want a mosque on every street corner.
Let's see how well recieved they are then ?
And before you start , I'm a realist not a racist.
The woman I'm seeing lives in Ireland.
I live here.it suits us both to see each other for a week every 3 months.
Her town is being flooded with Africans and Asians.
Her son can't get a place but they do.
They are both really pissed off.
 
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