Irish Current Affairs

[mancity2012_eamo]

Ballymurphy Inquest: Coroner finds 10 victims were innocent

A priest and a mother of eight were among 10 people killed in Belfast after an Army operation in 1971.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ten people killed in west Belfast almost 50 years ago in the wake of an Army operation were "entirely innocent", an inquest has found.

The inquest, which began in November 2018, examined the deaths in and around the Ballymurphy area of west Belfast in August 1971.
The shootings happened after an operation in which paramilitary suspects were detained without trial.
Victims included a priest trying to help the wounded and a mother of eight.
Nine of the 10 victims were killed by the Army, the coroner said.
The coroner could not definitively say who shot the tenth victim, John McKerr.
Coroner, Mrs Justice Keegan, delivered her findings on Tuesday over the course of more than two hours.


The killings happened over three days immediately following the introduction of internment - the arrest and detention of paramilitary suspects without trial.
The court heard almost 100 days of evidence from more than 150 witnesses.
These included more than 60 former soldiers, more than 30 civilians and experts in ballistics, pathology and engineering.
Mrs Justice Keegan said that the effect of the killings on the families of the 10 victims have been "stark".
"What is very clear, is that all of the deceased in the serious of inquests were entirely innocent of wrongdoing on the day in question," Mrs Justice Keegan said.
Inquests were held into the deaths in 1972, but they were separate and returned open verdicts.
The new inquests, which began in November 2018, have been held together.




For extra context, this incident (amongst others) was very much a catalyst for the protests in Derry a few months later

The August 1971 killings took place as troops swept through republican districts, rounding up suspects for internment without trial, a move that prompted violent protests across Northern Ireland.

The inquest heard that some of the dead appeared to have been shot by members of the Parachute Regiment, the same regiment that five months later massacred protesters at County Derry on Bloody Sunday.

I hope it gives the families closure.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

I hope it gives the families closure.

And justice

 

[ob]

Glad to hear of that verdict today

 

[hilts]

And justice

The people ultimately responsible never get brought to justice I’m afraid, awful story this. Really feel for those families.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

The people ultimately responsible never get brought to justice I’m afraid, awful story this. Really feel for those families.

The question was put to some of the families on the news report tonight about the suggested amnesty and the answer from them was interesting.
They recognise that justice probably will never be served and will be more difficult with time but they reserve the right, if they have gathered together the necessary evidence, to bring their case before the courts.

I’m guessing if you are not a victim or family of victims you may be more amenable to the notion of amnesty. But there is also truth in the logic that if there is no risk of prosecution then the truth may be easier to find.

One thing I do believe through all of the Troubles is that the criminal actions of the terrorists and the criminal actions of the state are not equal.
The state needs to be clean and on many occasions it wasn’t.

One family member summed it up well by effectively saying that, if those charged with upholding the law operate outside the law, then there is no law.

That’s pretty much how you got the escalation of the troubles.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The question was put to some of the families on the news report tonight about the suggested amnesty and the answer from them was interesting.
They recognise that justice probably will never be served and will be more difficult with time but they reserve the right, if they have gathered together the necessary evidence, to bring their case before the courts.

I’m guessing if you are not a victim or family of victims you may be more amenable to the notion of amnesty. But there is also truth in the logic that if there is no risk of prosecution then the truth may be easier to find.

One thing I do believe through all of the Troubles is that the criminal actions of the terrorists and the criminal actions of the state are not equal.
The state needs to be clean and on many occasions it wasn’t.

One family member summed it up well by effectively saying that, if those charged with upholding the law operate outside the law, then there is no law.

That’s pretty much how you got the escalation of the troubles.

justifying terrorism, had it all on here now.

 

[hilts]

The question was put to some of the families on the news report tonight about the suggested amnesty and the answer from them was interesting.
They recognise that justice probably will never be served and will be more difficult with time but they reserve the right, if they have gathered together the necessary evidence, to bring their case before the courts.

I’m guessing if you are not a victim or family of victims you may be more amenable to the notion of amnesty. But there is also truth in the logic that if there is no risk of prosecution then the truth may be easier to find.

One thing I do believe through all of the Troubles is that the criminal actions of the terrorists and the criminal actions of the state are not equal.
The state needs to be clean and on many occasions it wasn’t.

One family member summed it up well by effectively saying that, if those charged with upholding the law operate outside the law, then there is no law.

That’s pretty much how you got the escalation of the troubles.

I'm of the opinion you don't kill innocent people. At the end of the day people are responsible for their own actions.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

justifying terrorism, had it all on here now.

Don’t know where you got that in what I wrote. Ever.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I'm of the opinion you don't kill innocent people. At the end of the day people are responsible for their own actions.

And I’d agree with you.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Don’t know where you got that in what I wrote. Ever.

well your last 3 sentences say it, so nuff said really.

 

[Saddleworth2]

To my shame, I knew little about this Incident.
Innocents shot by our army in our own country.
A priest. A mother of eight.
I’m glad that the families have had this decision and they should prosecute where there is evidence.
There should also be an enquiry to determine the events of that day, the chain of command and why it has taken this long to reach the verdict from yesterday. I wont hold my breath for that though.
I truly believe Anglo/Irish history should be mandatory in schools it might broaden the understanding just a little.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

well your last 3 sentences say it, so nuff said really.

So, the british army "invade" an area of a british city to deliberately intern (imprison without evidence/proof) people and as a result 10 innocent people are killed. And you take it that Eamo is justifying terrorism by suggesting there be an amnesty (for civilians AND the army) in order to get to the real Truth????

I dont know where you live, but if its say, Manchester....can you try and imagine this happening where you live....and i mean really, genuinely imagine the scenario....armed soldiers and tanks speeding through your estate, raiding houses to imprison "suspects" with no evidence and whilst they are doing it, over the space of 3 days, the kill 10 innocent people....a mum of eight, a priest......

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

well your last 3 sentences say it, so nuff said really.

So in order;
1. Everyone is accountable for their actions. The state should aspire to higher standards than those they say are criminal. They should not lower their standards, which they quite often did in law enforcement.
2. Is an opinion from inside the community affected.
If those upholding the law do not observe the same law themselves, there is no law.

‘nuff said.

3. Is a statement of history. True in my opinion. No judgement in it.

So where do you get a justification for terrorism in any of that.?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

To my shame, I knew little about this Incident.
Innocents shot by our army in our own country.
A priest. A mother of eight.
I’m glad that the families have had this decision and they should prosecute where there is evidence.
There should also be an enquiry to determine the events of that day, the chain of command and why it has taken this long to reach the verdict from yesterday. I wont hold my breath for that though.
I truly believe Anglo/Irish history should be mandatory in schools it might broaden the understanding just a little.

I truly believe Anglo/Irish history should be taught more objectively and dispassionately in schools in Ireland. Certainly more objectively than I was taught in CBS’s. Hopefully it is now, as it is certainly presented more objectively on the national broadcast channel.
The trouble is it is difficult to be dispassionate about a lot that went on with the consequences still all around.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

So, the british army "invade" an area of a british city to deliberately intern (imprison without evidence/proof) people and as a result 10 innocent people are killed. And you take it that Eamo is justifying terrorism by suggesting there be an amnesty (for civilians AND the army) in order to get to the real Truth????

I dont know where you live, but if its say, Manchester....can you try and imagine this happening where you live....and i mean really, genuinely imagine the scenario....armed soldiers and tanks speeding through your estate, raiding houses to imprison "suspects" with no evidence and whilst they are doing it, over the space of 3 days, the kill 10 innocent people....a mum of eight, a priest......

I’m not even the one suggesting the amnesty, that would be Boris and his cronies.
I merely listed one of the merits of such an action if it ever occurs.

 

[Mike N]

Documentary about Ballymurphy killings tonight at 11.00 pm, channel 4.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Documentary about Ballymurphy killings tonight at 11.00 pm, channel 4.

Worth a watch I’d guess.

Have one recorded from last night about, Belturbet, Pettigo and Dublin bombings and evidence collected that has been sat on and barred from the public for 84 years. Caught a tiny bit and it really piqued my interest.

 

[Highpeakprowler]

I truly believe Anglo/Irish history should be taught more objectively and dispassionately in schools in Ireland. Certainly more objectively than I was taught in CBS’s. Hopefully it is now, as it is certainly presented more objectively on the national broadcast channel.
The trouble is it is difficult to be dispassionate about a lot that went on with the consequences still all around.

Modern Ireland, with its largely youthful population, doesn't hold many of the views from the past. They have the intelligence to understand that history is history. Like the fact that Europe can put to one side the holocaust that Germany acted out within living memory.

There is little point in focusing on the things that once divided us, when there is much more that unites us.

I have family in Dublin who know more about the UK than we do!. And by that, I mean in their culture, hobbies, interests, music, sport, fashion etc.. They watch BBC news and channel 4 programmes, shop in British stores, listen to 6 music. Follow British politics, sometimes more than their own.

I think the UK and Ireland is doing okay. Brexit hasn't helped, but Irish people know that half the country never wanted it in the first place.

 

[Mike N]

Worth a watch I’d guess.

Have one recorded from last night about, Belturbet, Pettigo and Dublin bombings and evidence collected that has been sat on and barred from the public for 84 years. Caught a tiny bit and it really piqued my interest.

Sounds interesting. Might google that when I have time.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Modern Ireland, with its largely youthful population, doesn't hold many of the views from the past. They have the intelligence to understand that history is history. Like the fact that Europe can put to one side the holocaust that Germany acted out within living memory.

There is little point in focusing on the things that once divided us, when there is much more that unites us.

I have family in Dublin who know more about the UK than we do!. And by that, I mean in their culture, hobbies, interests, music, sport, fashion etc.. They watch BBC news and channel 4 programmes, shop in British stores, listen to 6 music. Follow British politics, sometimes more than their own.

I think the UK and Ireland is doing okay. Brexit hasn't helped, but Irish people know that half the country never wanted it in the first place.

All very true.
My young lad’s generation don’t give a toss about a United Ireland. By that I mean it is nowhere near the top of their list of problems facing them. They have no problem with NI people wanting to keep whichever identity they choose.
The other side of the coin down here though is that they also have no hang ups about voting for Sinn Fein on purely social issues, as the two main parties are two cheeks of the same arse.

That itself coupled with SF getting a majority up north, if that ever happens will have a huge bearing on the direction we go and how quickly.