Irish leading the way again

[CTID1988]

"During Ramadan Muslims abstain from food, drink and sex between dawn and sunset" Can only imagine what the house is like as soon as the sun goes down. SLice of pizza in one hand, can of coke in the other while balls deep in your missus. Sounds like my kind of evening

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Relevant?

How can it be without comparable figures of non-muslim opinion? If for instance 83% of muslims in Albania think homosexuality is wrong when contrasted to only 17% of the population at large, that might suggest muslims in Albania have a problem with homosexuality. But if the number of Albanians generally who think homosexuality is wrong is anywhere near 83%, or possibly even more, that doesn't say anything about muslims per se but it may well tell you plenty about prevailing social attitudes in Albania.

Do you have any basis for thinking that in these countries the opinion of muslims specifically tends to be significantly out of line with prevailing opinions generally? Or do you think that homophobia isn't a problem in (say) Russia generally, it's only amongst the Russian muslim community?

1
You make a good point, and I wish that they combined these polls of Muslim opinion with polls of the views of every other group, to see if their opinion diverges from that of the general population and by how much. But I think it's safe to say that the number of Britons who would like to see homosexuality criminalised is a lot less than 52%. Progressive Muslims like the ones in the OP recognise that their minority has a problem with homophobia, but that it doesn't necessarily have to be the case (the case for homophobia in Islam is a lot more dubious than the explicit disapproval in the Bible and Torah, for example), and these are the people we should be getting behind to help improve things.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

"During Ramadan Muslims abstain from food, drink and sex between dawn and sunset" Can only imagine what the house is like as soon as the sun goes down. SLice of pizza in one hand, can of coke in the other while balls deep in your missus. Sounds like my kind of evening

Yeah, that's one of the ironies of Ramadan. People actually eat more overall, and a lot of people put on weight during Ramadan, because they eat huge amounts of food in the evening to make up for a day of starving yourself.

 

[Chris in London]

1
You make a good point, and I wish that they combined these polls of Muslim opinion with polls of the views of every other group, to see if their opinion diverges from that of the general population and by how much. But I think it's safe to say that the number of Britons who would like to see homosexuality criminalised is a lot less than 52%. Progressive Muslims like the ones in the OP recognise that their minority has a problem with homophobia, but that it doesn't necessarily have to be the case (the case for homophobia in Islam is a lot more dubious than the explicit disapproval in the Bible and Torah, for example), and these are the people we should be getting behind to help improve things.

I suspect you are right. However I would have thought that the proportion of british muslims that are first or second generation immigrants is rather greater than the proportion of the population as a whole that are. So that attitude towards same-sex relationships may have as much or more to do with prevailing attitudes in the country from which those British muslims or their forefathers first came to the UK as it has to do with the teachings of the koran or various imams.

I don't see homophobia as a problem that is particular to muslims, but I do think it is right to say that in a lot of other countries on the list cited above, whether predominantly muslim or otherwise, the prevalent attitudes towards same sex relationships are a lot less tolerant than they are here. As I suggested above, it would not be a particular surprise to me to learn that e.g. in Russia the attitude of Russian muslims towards same sex relationships is broadly speaking indistinguishable from the attitudes of the population generally. I don't see any validity in singling out one particular grouping (i.e. muslims) for particular criticism of their apparent homophobia, if that is in truth merely a microcosm of a more general presence of homophobia in a particular country.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Relevant?

How can it be without comparable figures of non-muslim opinion? If for instance 83% of muslims in Albania think homosexuality is wrong when contrasted to only 17% of the population at large, that might suggest muslims in Albania have a problem with homosexuality. But if the number of Albanians generally who think homosexuality is wrong is anywhere near 83%, or possibly even more, that doesn't say anything about muslims per se but it may well tell you plenty about prevailing social attitudes in Albania.

Do you have any basis for thinking that in these countries the opinion of muslims specifically tends to be significantly out of line with prevailing opinions generally? Or do you think that homophobia isn't a problem in (say) Russia generally, it's only amongst the Russian muslim community?

Well done for spectacularly missing the point, borne out of a desire to virtue signal.

Yes, it's entirely relevant. The point was that while the article in the OP is a nice example to the contrary, evidence shows that homophobia is clearly inherent in Islam, it's directly in the religious doctrine of the faith, and thus is common among Muslims. The countries that are the least devoutly religious and more secular are less homophobic, and that's not a coincidence.

Of course there are other cultures and nations which have homophobia problems, some for different reasons, some similar, but they only serve as a red herring in this case as they're not relevant to the topic at hand. They only serve as a whataboutism for people like you who are uncomfortable with this specific topic.

Re a comparison for non-Muslim British opinions on homosexuality, as a control, from the same ICM survey:

52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal, the figure is 5% for the rest of the general population (which includes other religious groups and the non religious of course).

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf

That's quite a large discrepancy which suggests a problem. Now you might want to cite whataboutisms, or cite a problem B to enable the overlooking of this problem A, but it doesn't wash for the rest of us.

Now homophobia also exists in other faiths, including Christianity for example. However, its quite clear that faith with the biggest issue with homophobia is Islam, anyone who suggests that they represent comparable problems is disingenuous at best.

Here's what an Imam from Orlando had to say about homosexuality in the same city where America's worst mass shooting eventually took place a few years later:

 

[JULES]

all irish homosexuals should be forced to be muslim, or wear flared trousers!!!

 

[marty Boihh]

I'm Irish 27 and lads we are up for all the home nations ,for wales I'd be delighted for them to win it ,all the best boys

 

[Chris in London]

Well done for spectacularly missing the point, borne out of a desire to virtue signal.

Yes, it's entirely relevant. The point was that while the article in the OP is a nice example to the contrary, evidence shows that homophobia is clearly inherent in Islam, it's directly in the religious doctrine of the faith, and thus is common among Muslims. The countries that are the least devoutly religious and more secular are less homophobic, and that's not a coincidence.

Of course there are other cultures and nations which have homophobia problems, some for different reasons, some similar, but they only serve as a red herring in this case as they're not relevant to the topic at hand. They only serve as a whataboutism for people like you who are uncomfortable with this specific topic.

Re a comparison for non-Muslim British opinions on homosexuality, as a control, from the same ICM survey:

52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal, the figure is 5% for the rest of the general population (which includes other religious groups and the non religious of course).

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf

That's quite a large discrepancy which suggests a problem. Now you might want to cite whataboutisms, or cite a problem B to enable the overlooking of this problem A, but it doesn't wash for the rest of us.

Now homophobia also exists in other faiths, including Christianity for example. However, its quite clear that faith with the biggest issue with homophobia is Islam, anyone who suggests that they represent comparable problems is disingenuous at best.

Here's what an Imam from Orlando had to say about homosexuality in the same city where America's worst mass shooting eventually took place a few years later:

What utter drivel.

Since you choose to personalise the issue rather than debate it, how unsurprising that you make a link between homophobia and Islam without any evidential basis for doing so. It is another example of your closet racism. You have been called out for it before, and not only by me, and it doesn't usually take long for it to rear its head again. You have in the past suggested Islam itself is responsible for terrorism rather than a perverted version practised by a tiny minority of sociopaths. Now, on a similarly flawed basis, you suggest Islam is responsible for homophobia. I await your post that Islam is also responsible for climate change.

You cite one example only of a society where there is a marked difference between attitudes towards homosexuality between the general population and Muslims specifically, and that is ours, which is significantly more tolerant than any of those on your list and where the Muslim population tends to be first/second or third generation immigrants from the very countries where you point to homophobia being such a problem. It is not 'whataboutery' to suggest that in the nations on the list you produce homophobia is just as likely to be a product of a prevailing antipathy towards homosexuality in that society generally as anything particular to Islam. You have absolutely zero basis for suggesting this is not so in the absence of comparable evidence relating to the views of the non Muslim population in these bastions of tolerance like Albania and Russia. Yet it is a link you are happy to make because it accords with your world view. Worse, your knee jerk reaction is that everybody who regards your links as tenuous to non existent must be a hand wringing liberal whose sole purpose is to parade themselves as a paragon of virtue rather than simply calling bullshit when they see it.

You say, without setting out any supporting evidence, that the countries that are the more secular are the least homophobic and that is not a coincidence. This is bullshit. To give just two examples, Thailand is not noticeably more devout than Bangladesh, yet the incidence of homophobia, according to the table you provided, is 50% greater in Thailand. Russia is noticeably more secular than Pakistan yet the figure is comparable. It can equally be said that the incidence of homophobia is closely linked to the extent of development and education system in those countries, thus it is unsurprising that Muslims in more developed countries are less homophobic than others in less developed places. Doubtless you would reject that as not according with your world view that Islam is a bad thing and should be blamed.

By the way, if you don't like being called a racist, explicitly, let the mods know. Let them discuss your conduct and post history in the mod forum and let them decide.

 

[burning blue soul]

Seriously though. Well done to the Irish Muslim community.

There's only 2 of them mate! ;)

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

What utter drivel.

Since you choose to personalise the issue rather than debate it, how unsurprising that you make a link between homophobia and Islam without any evidential basis for doing so. It is another example of your closet racism. You have been called out for it before, and not only by me, and it doesn't usually take long for it to rear its head again. You have in the past suggested Islam itself is responsible for terrorism rather than a perverted version practised by a tiny minority of sociopaths. Now, on a similarly flawed basis, you suggest Islam is responsible for homophobia. I await your post that Islam is also responsible for climate change.

You cite one example only of a society where there is a marked difference between attitudes towards homosexuality between the general population and Muslims specifically, and that is ours, which is significantly more tolerant than any of those on your list and where the Muslim population tends to be first/second or third generation immigrants from the very countries where you point to homophobia being such a problem. It is not 'whataboutery' to suggest that in the nations on the list you produce homophobia is just as likely to be a product of a prevailing antipathy towards homosexuality in that society generally as anything particular to Islam. You have absolutely zero basis for suggesting this is not so in the absence of comparable evidence relating to the views of the non Muslim population in these bastions of tolerance like Albania and Russia. Yet it is a link you are happy to make because it accords with your world view. Worse, your knee jerk reaction is that everybody who regards your links as tenuous to non existent must be a hand wringing liberal whose sole purpose is to parade themselves as a paragon of virtue rather than simply calling bullshit when they see it.

You say, without setting out any supporting evidence, that the countries that are the more secular are the least homophobic and that is not a coincidence. This is bullshit. To give just two examples, Thailand is not noticeably more devout than Bangladesh, yet the incidence of homophobia, according to the table you provided, is 50% greater in Thailand. Russia is noticeably more secular than Pakistan yet the figure is comparable. It can equally be said that the incidence of homophobia is closely linked to the extent of development and education system in those countries, thus it is unsurprising that Muslims in more developed countries are less homophobic than others in less developed places. Doubtless you would reject that as not according with your world view that Islam is a bad thing and should be blamed.

By the way, if you don't like being called a racist, explicitly, let the mods know. Let them discuss your conduct and post history in the mod forum and let them decide.

Laughable response.

how unsurprising that you make a link between homophobia and Islam without any evidential basis for doing so. It is another example of your closet racism.

One thing's for sure, I was right about your virtue signalling. Utter weakling.

http://islamqa.info/en/38622

Don't really know where to start, but I'll just cite this one paragraph from the above Q&A site citing the very most doctrines of Islam, and you tell me that drawing a link between Islam and homophobia is borne out of racism ('racism' against a religion - laughable) with no evidential basis:

The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).

You have been called out for it before, and not only by me, and it doesn't usually take long for it to rear its head again. You have in the past suggested Islam itself is responsible for terrorism rather than a perverted version practised by a tiny minority of sociopaths. Now, on a similarly flawed basis, you suggest Islam is responsible for homophobia. I await your post that Islam is also responsible for climate change.

What's happened before is that I've had tedious and moronic exchanges with weaklings like yourself who refuse to acknowledge beliefs can have real world consequences - whether they're superstitious, or religious. Whether they involve Islam or not.

In the past I have said Islam is not an irrelevant consideration in terrorism done in its name, only people like you seem to believe it is.

I'm and atheist and I've spoken with Muslims who recognise this, and see it as an issue. It's only jokers like you who refuse to, and reel out all the ad hominem attacks you can muster for anyone who dares to acknowledge it, as I said: pathetic.

You cite one example only of a society where there is a marked difference between attitudes towards homosexuality between the general population and Muslims specifically, and that is ours, which is significantly more tolerant than any of those on your list and where the Muslim population tends to be first/second or third generation immigrants from the very countries where you point to homophobia being such a problem

So you're just outright dismissing the relevance of religion in this homophobia, in spite of many of those countries having nothing in common besides sharing a religion, many not even sharing the same continent?

Once more: laughable.

I'm not interested in fully deconstructing your whataboutisms and flawed arguments when it comes to this specific topic. This thread was about Islam if you hadn't noticed, people like you patently have an inherent need to drag this off topic because it makes you uncomfortable.

If you hadn't noticed I acknowledged that there are many differing motives for homophobia across the world, and there are many differing nations and cultures, and religions, culpable to greater or lesser extents. I acknowledge that. And what's more, to touch upon it briefly, at risk of playing your game, something that is central to Russia's rise in homophobia among the general populace Is the Russian state actively endorsing and encouraging it with the Russian Orthodox church being pivotal in that campaign.

But, once more, what I was at pains to point out, was that in focusing on this specific problem re Islam, I'm not discounting the others, I just refuse to see you utilise them to drag this off topic and neglect this issue. Fairly straightforward.

You can call me racist all you want, I don't think you're particularly bright, frankly. If the mods believed I was racist I wouldn't be here.

But please continue your ad hominem attacks and virtue signalling if it allows you to feel good about yourself while glossing over serious homophobia.