Islam v Christianity-what it boils down to

[tonea2003]

your use of emotional script is quite telling.
why has screaming come into this
i could say the same about your views being not shared, i'm not sure what that proves.
the pivitol word here is faith
i assume you have this faith in the unproven hence your stubborn defence.
where as i do not.
i wonder if children left to thier own devices would have the same embracing of faith.

Strange that you find something telling when I follow no religion or organised belief system what so ever.
I havent screamed in any of this. Yes my veiws will not be shared by everyone but do you actually know what they are?.
People believe in good conqours evil, karma and many other unproven things.
You have assumed wrong I am not a follower of any of these systems of orgnaised religion just read as much as I can to learn as much about people as I can in the short time on earth we call life.
Not all children have been raised in a faith. I believe our society was better as a whole when they were history tells those tales.

you're not bad at twisting things to suit your own point, but come on you will have to better than that.
now we know your stance, or i think i do, what do you believe?
i find it strange your stoic defence of religious faith and any attempts to challenge this belief.
which incidently is just as much as my right as it is yours to defend.

i too would like to hear these historic tales you speak of

 

[SWP's back]

Teaching about religion in schools is valuable and denying kids knowledge of something that still impacts the world as much as it does is giving them a less than holistic education to put it mildly. As long as it is taught in a neutral fashion it should be done. Faith schools though should face the choice of going secular and losing their exclusionary elements or going solo without taxpayer-financed support. But, yes, it will be possible to object, but you shouldn't.

Whilst I agree that it is indeed an important subject, it shouldn't be taught as a subject alone much in the same way that Politics shouldn't be taught as a subject alone. Purely because impressionable children are at the mercy of someone who would have a view on these things and would likely tend to project those views on the children.

I would much rather those issues were touched upon in a History class (History being a great gateway subject).

Very good point mate

 

[tonea2003]

what has a god got to do with the human emotion love?

Any religion that teaches compassion, forgiveness, understanding, and love demonstrably (if not explicitly) believes that they are one and the same thing. The only difference is the manner or extent to which they personify their belief into a deity or deities.

The Incas worshipped the Sun; plenty of ancient religions did. Probably more accurate in terms of treating something as an all-powerful deity; the Sun provides everything we have on earth. But it's just one of an unimaginable number of suns. Galileo destroyed that religion before the Spanish even got there. It doesn't cheapen the importance of the Sun to us.

'Modern' religions often claim their way will provide everything for when we die, but we first have to have faith that we only physically die when we die. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is not the case; the question is therefore the definition of "death".

Energy cannot be destroyed, only dissipated. Entropy turns us into atoms. Electromagnetism turns atoms into us. Religion and science are the same thing, just worded differently.

The infinite and infinitessimal could be one and the same thing. Frankly, that's enough of a headfuck to stop me caring whether a god exists. It's unimaginable to absolutely believe that one doesn't exist, and since one can't prove it either way, one can never assume that one is right. It's a personal question of whether it matters.

Nothing should ever be taken literally.

thanks for the science lesson that's all well and good,

why is it unimaginable to think that a deity does not exist

i assume you [didactic] have this faith in the unproven hence your stubborn defence.

Go on then, explain how my complete absence of faith fits into this hypothesis.

do i take it you don't require faith as you know a god exists?
that i am waiting to hear

 

[SWP's back]

Yes, children are forced into religion. A child does not have the mental ability to combat bullshit. It's brainwashing without as much effort.

I am sure you're right, given the amount of effort required just to explain why I don't believe in God to someone who does believe in God and retorts with "but why?" without ever seeing things from a non-believer's point of view. I've got it down to a fine art now because I don't try to persuade people that they are wrong. It destroys their argument completely if you argue that both sides are just as likely to be correct, because you are agreeing with them, and they can't prove it, and neither can you.

Does "brainwashing" children with religion diminish their bullshit detection system in later life too? Why is this specific to religion? Was I brainwashed with science?

I can't sift through the enormous stack of evidence for all aspects of science, there's a massive leap of faith required every time I push the switch that the room will light up. Another to assume that the sun will rise every morning. That leap gets easier every single time. You may call it faith; I call it acceptance.

I was brought up a Christian by a CofE vicar but as soon as I was taught the basics of science, the idea of God just didn't make any sense. Were my parents brainwashed or did they choose to believe in God based on their own experiences?

When I went to a Pathfinders camp aged 10 I had my first "religious experience". The power of collective worship cannot be explained by science.

When I was taught about other religions in RE, all of them made a lot of sense. But they were obviously just brought about by cultural differences. I would not have realised this if I hadn't been taught RE at school.

Children are perhaps not equally capable of detecting bullshit but it's more likely that some are more pliant than others and just don't care what the right answer is if it isn't precisely what they believe. It's like when kids start doing GCSEs and have to forget their previous understanding to be able to understand the correct model. And then they go on to A-Levels and have to forget their previous understanding to be able to understand the correct model. And then they go on to do a degree.... PhD.... etc. No model is ever perfect, it's just an explanation of how things work. Eventually you can't explain things in any more detail because you can't detect them. So... God did it!

Asking anti-scientists to use science to explain unscientific acts in the Bible is hilarious. Conversely, anyone can explain a scientific act in the Bible through religion.

Most people just don't care what's correct or not, they will believe whatever they feel they can understand or accept as fact. Who can blame them? "God did it" and "God put that there to test our faith" is a much simpler explanation than trying to understand the intricacies of quantum theory, the process of evolutionary development, and whatever the fuck "primordial ooze" was supposed to be. Carbon + Hydrogen + Lightning => Bacteria?

Blaise Pascal believed in God because it was logically more beneficial to believe than not believe in God. What effort is required? Just a bit of faith. It didn't stop him being a scientist and mathematician, and it doesn't stop anyone else. You can't disprove God.

I can see some sense in that approach. There are quantum physicists who are devout Christians. The two only conflict if you insist on taking the entire Bible literally, which means you have to believe that Noah created a boat and piled on two of every single animal in the entire world, and that Jesus walked on water, and God will smite you down if you wear two different types of cloth. Bearing in mind that at the time of the Bible, nobody knew that we are made up almost entirely of empty space, living on a universally insignficant rock made up almost entirely of empty space, and floating in the middle of almost entirely empty space. Or are we?

As for the last part of your post, are you trying to tell us that religion is not the cause of any ill in the world?

I was trying to say only what I specifically said. Anything you suggest I might have said but didn't say is clearly not what I said but what you said.

If a man uses his religion as justification, his religion is not at fault, he is.
If people simply believe a man's teachings, their religion is not at fault, they are.
Everyone has responsibility for their own actions.
Anyone who doesn't is either deluded, megalomanic, or seriously mentally ill. Or maybe they actually are hearing the voice of God telling them to kill kill kill? We will never know.

Waco was not a distant product of Judaism, it was the product of gullible people believing anything they are told.

What about the gullible people who allegedly gave up their life savings this summer because a preacher told them he'd recalculated that the world would end again? And it didn't again. Imbeciles.

I'd go to R.E and my teacher would tell me god loves me,
then i'd got to physics and my teacher there would tell me it's bollocks lol.

Strange, my RE teachers told me that different religions believe different things. Did you go to a Catholic school?

Apparently, if you were brainwashed as a child, you would only be able to believe one of those teachers....? Surely a teenager who is perfectly capable of understanding the concepts of science is capable of working out for themselves what's real and what's not.

Nowadays, if you want to produce a nation of compliant automatons, you don't need religion. You set up a social hierarchy that is impervious to criticism, making people believe that their desires and votes counts for nothing, and that they have no control over their own lives. You continue to tell them that Facebook is brilliant and that

That's the atheist approach to human control, where religion is another distracting side show and a stick to beat people with. Is that really any better than the fear of God? Probably not.

Clearly if we win the EPL and UCL this season, Allah is the one true God

I was going to come up with a nice long argument against your verbose posting here but then I realised it is impossible to reason with a person suffering from delusion bordering on mental illness.

Before you get uppity, if a single individual held a non-standard metaphysical belief which affected every part of his life, he might be considered a candidate for treatment for delusions, but only because they aren't already officially established religious beliefs and not considered harmful to themselves or the general public. Mass-psychosis I'm afraid and I just wish parents would stop forcing this child abuse onto their children.

 

[Anonymous]

The basic tenets of all religions are the same:

Be good

Do good

Love one another

Not hugely difficult yet some choose to corrupt, exploit and misrepresent. Human beings eh? Doncha just luv em?!

 

[baldmosher]

why is it unimaginable to think that a deity does not exist

You need to read more carefully.

It's not unimaginable to think anything, including whether a deity does or does not exist. Thinking and believing it doesn't make it true.

It's unimaginable that anything has absolute certainty. That doesn't stop anyone thinking or believing it, or not.

i assume you [didactic] have this faith in the unproven hence your stubborn defence.

Go on then, explain how my complete absence of faith fits into this hypothesis.

do i take it you don't require faith as you know a god exists?
that i am waiting to hear

I already answered that question. You didn't answer mine.

-- Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:32 pm --

I was going to come up with a nice long argument against your verbose posting here but then I realised it is impossible to reason with a person suffering from delusion bordering on mental illness.

Before you get uppity, if a single individual held a non-standard metaphysical belief which affected every part of his life, he might be considered a candidate for treatment for delusions, but only because they aren't already officially established religious beliefs and not considered harmful to themselves or the general public. Mass-psychosis I'm afraid and I just wish parents would stop forcing this child abuse onto their children.

No uppitiness here, I make most of my arguments from that standpoint. I find it quite liberating.

Maybe I was abused as a child.<br /><br />-- Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:35 pm --<br /><br />

[didactic], you're not bad at twisting things to suit your own point, but come on you will have to better than that.
now we know your stance, or i think i do, what do you believe?
i find it strange your stoic defence of religious faith and any attempts to challenge this belief.
which incidently is just as much as my right as it is yours to defend.
i too would like to hear these historic tales you speak of

He's already said what he believes. He believes life was better when organised religion was more prevalent in society. What's your problem with that?

 

[didactic]

you're not bad at twisting things to suit your own point, but come on you will have to better than that.
now we know your stance, or i think i do, what do you believe?
i find it strange your stoic defence of religious faith and any attempts to challenge this belief.
which incidently is just as much as my right as it is yours to defend.

i too would like to hear these historic tales you speak of

What have I twisted and what is my point?.
I believe that religion is not the problem man and his lust for power is. Religion is just a guide on how to live a good live with your fellow man. Man twists this for his pwn purposes and manipulates others in the process.
I dont try and change anyones mind I just put across what I think and how I see things. Everyone is free to do as they will.

These historic tales are everywhere for you to see children are now lazy, disrepectful, sexualised before being mature enough to understand consequence and simply more stupid now than ever throughout or history. I understand the good and bad sides to what religion has done to society.

 

[pirate]

you're not bad at twisting things to suit your own point, but come on you will have to better than that.
now we know your stance, or i think i do, what do you believe?
i find it strange your stoic defence of religious faith and any attempts to challenge this belief.
which incidently is just as much as my right as it is yours to defend.

i too would like to hear these historic tales you speak of

What have I twisted and what is my point?.
I been that religion is not the problem man and his lust for power is. Religion is just a guide on how to live a good live with your fellow man. Man twists this for his pwn purposes and manipulates others in the process.
I dont try and change anyones mind I just put across what I think and how I see things. Everyone is free to do as they will.

These historic tales are everywhere for you to see children are now lazy, disrepectful, sexualised before being mature enough to understand consequence and simply more stupid now than ever throughout or history. I understand the good and bad sides to what religion has done to society.

when historically was it better and what evidence is there that it was down to religious teaching?

its the second time i have asked I am wondering why you will not answer.

 

[jonny689]

Hahaha love this man!!

 

[tonea2003]

why is it unimaginable to think that a deity does not exist

You need to read more carefully.

It's not unimaginable to think anything, including whether a deity does or does not exist. Thinking and believing it doesn't make it true.


It's unimaginable that anything has absolute certainty. That doesn't stop anyone thinking or believing it, or not.

fair enough i should, but that belief should based on something more tangible than faith

Go on then, explain how my complete absence of faith fits into this hypothesis.

do i take it you don't require faith as you know a god exists?
that i am waiting to hear

I already answered that question. You didn't answer mine.

have you? then for me say again, does god exist? if so why,when,where etc
i'm all ears

your absense of faith is because you know god exists, yes?
so that why you have a stubborn defence. to me in a religious context it is one and the same so i wouldn't differentiate between you.
one has faith and believes but doesn't know for sure and one does not have faith because they believe they know.

-- Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:32 pm --

I was going to come up with a nice long argument against your verbose posting here but then I realised it is impossible to reason with a person suffering from delusion bordering on mental illness.

Before you get uppity, if a single individual held a non-standard metaphysical belief which affected every part of his life, he might be considered a candidate for treatment for delusions, but only because they aren't already officially established religious beliefs and not considered harmful to themselves or the general public. Mass-psychosis I'm afraid and I just wish parents would stop forcing this child abuse onto their children.

No uppitiness here, I make most of my arguments from that standpoint. I find it quite liberating.

Maybe I was abused as a child.

-- Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:35 pm --

[didactic], you're not bad at twisting things to suit your own point, but come on you will have to better than that.
now we know your stance, or i think i do, what do you believe?
i find it strange your stoic defence of religious faith and any attempts to challenge this belief.
which incidently is just as much as my right as it is yours to defend.
i too would like to hear these historic tales you speak of

He's already said what he believes. He believes life was better when organised religion was more prevalent in society. What's your problem with that?

my problem is you cant prove it.
so prove it and take my problem away.
religion can only give "emotional" comfort not physical.
who is to say in life before organised religion people wern't better emotionally.