So Israel wants the lot.So anyone saying "from the river to the sea" could be reported to the police, but would it be a defence to cite Likud's original platform that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"? Or the various Zionist groups who would regard "the land of Israel" as including both sides of the Jordan (there was even a song for that - though the original imagined a harmonious unity between the Arab, the Christian and the Jew", being more about the kingdom of Jordan as "artificial").
Though my country may be poor and small
It is mine from head to foot.
Stretching from the sea to the desert
And the Jordan, the Jordan in the middle.
Two Banks has the Jordan –
This is ours and, that is as well.
From the wealth of our land there shall prosper
The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew,
For our flag is a pure and just one
It will illuminate both sides of my Jordan.
The Jewish left in the States seems keen to find writers to explain that the "river to the sea" phrase "doesn't mean what you think it means", and others to tarce cite Ben Gurion in 1947 (my italics):
"My assumption (which is why I am a fervent proponent of a state, even though it is now linked to partition) is that a Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning.
"When we acquire one thousand or 10,000 dunams, we feel elated. It does not hurt our feelings that by this acquisition we are not in possession of the whole land. This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.
"We shall admit into the state all the Jews we can. We firmly believe that we can admit more than two million Jews. We shall build a multi-faceted Jewish economy – agricultural, industrial, and maritime. We shall organize an advanced defense force—a superior army which I have no doubt will be one of the best armies in the world. At that point I am confident that we would not fail in settling in the remaining parts of the country, through agreement and understanding with our Arab neighbors, or through some other means."
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Israel-Palestine Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
- Start date
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly what you're doing with Israel.Us and the US are still trying to dictate who runs countries we don't like.
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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PalestineWhich is exactly what you're doing with Israel.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.Palestine
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
This "harmonious unity" was amply demonstrated when Arabs regularly took part in massacres of Jews in the 1920's and 1930's, including the Hebron massacre. The Arab riots of 1933-36 were instrumental in the British decision to limit migration, even when the situation in Germany was clear. The Germans wanted rid of the Jews, many Jews wanted to go but no one would take them.So anyone saying "from the river to the sea" could be reported to the police, but would it be a defence to cite Likud's original platform that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"? Or the various Zionist groups who would regard "the land of Israel" as including both sides of the Jordan (there was even a song for that - though the original imagined a harmonious unity between the Arab, the Christian and the Jew", being more about the kingdom of Jordan as "artificial").
In fact, the original proposal for post-Mandate Palestine was that it was run by a combined authority of Arabs and Jews, a bit similar to the power-sharing agreement that brought about the NI Assembly. The Jewish agency wasn't that keen but the Arabs totally rejected it. That's your "harmonious unity".
And post-1948 (and even before in some Arab countries) Jews who had lived there happily and successfully for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, were persecuted and even expelled. This accelerated post 1948 and then was pretty well complete after 1967. So, tell me again about "harmonious unity".
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That's a bit odd.This "harmonious unity" was amply demonstrated when Arabs regularly took part in massacres of Jews in the 1920's and 1930's, including the Hebron massacre. The Arab riots of 1933-36 were instrumental in the British decision to limit migration, even when the situation in Germany was clear. The Germans wanted rid of the Jews, many Jews wanted to go but no one would take them.
In fact, the original proposal for post-Mandate Palestine was that it was run by a combined authority of Arabs and Jews, a bit similar to the power-sharing agreement that brought about the NI Assembly. The Jewish agency wasn't that keen but the Arabs totally rejected it. That's your "harmonious unity".
And post-1948 (and even before in some Arab countries) Jews who had lived there happily and successfully for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, were persecuted and even expelled. This accelerated post 1948 and then was pretty well complete after 1967. So, tell me again about "harmonious unity".
The relevant words of the song were
"From the wealth of our land there shall prosper The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew." So it's not my idea of harmonious unity.
It was by a Zionist who'd been imprisoned by the British for possession of weapons for training in self-defence.
Home Manchester has been showing The Tinderbox, a journey of discovery by a part-British secular Jew. She blames the British for offering self-government to the Arabs for their help in WW1 then promising the same land as a Jewish homeland.
I'm not sure there's much in the film that says anything new (just making a film about what she didn't know!) and the best idea she has to solve anything is "treat others as you would have them treat you" (a bit of a messianic idea that!).
She actually thinks part of the support in Britain and elsewhere for a Jewish homeland was anti-semitic, as in "a way to get rid of our Jews". I'm not sure about that, but some of the comments of Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner in Palestine in the early 1920s now seem very optimistic about harmonious relationships.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
There's probably some truth in that story about British support for a Jewish homeland being seen as a potential opportunity to get rid of the Jews. The only Cabinet member who opposed it was (I think) Samuel Hoare, the only Jewish minister.That's a bit odd.
The relevant words of the song were
"From the wealth of our land there shall prosper The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew." So it's not my idea of harmonious unity.
It was by a Zionist who'd been imprisoned by the British for possession of weapons for training in self-defence.
Home Manchester has been showing The Tinderbox, a journey of discovery by a part-British secular Jew. She blames the British for offering self-government to the Arabs for their help in WW1 then promising the same land as a Jewish homeland.
I'm not sure there's much in the film that says anything new (just making a film about what she didn't know!) and the best idea she has to solve anything is "treat others as you would have them treat you" (a bit of a messianic idea that!).
She actually thinks part of the support in Britain and elsewhere for a Jewish homeland was anti-semitic, as in "a way to get rid of our Jews". I'm not sure about that, but some of the comments of Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner in Palestine in the early 1920s now seem very optimistic about harmonious relationships.
I'm pretty certain though that Balfour was a genuine convert to the Zionist cause, due to his introduction to and friendship with Chaim Weizmann. That introduction came via Louis Dreyfus who set up Clayton Aniline, where the CFA now stands.
You're right that many promises were made to many people by the British but the Balfour Declaration never intended there to be a Jewish state, but a 'homeland'. So Herbert Samuel tried to accommodate that by offering a power sharing agreement. Once that was rejected then there was little hope for a negotiated, peaceful arrangement.
I'd take slight issue with your statement that the British were offering the same land to Arabs & Jews. The British controlled the Arabian peninsula (what's now Saudi, Oman, UAE, plus Iraq, Jordan and Israel/Occupied Territories post WW1. Once they'd parceled all that up and given it to various tribal chiefs, the Palestine Mandate was the bit left over.
It ceased to exist !!! No come on, please tell me someone has hacked your account. The British govt. and others may have made decisions but there were people living there, they had done for centuries. If we accept Israeli Jews have a right to live there so do others. During the first World War the UK govt. promised Palestinians self control IF they helped the British against the Ottoman empire. The UK govt. lied and renaged on that promise.No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.
There will never be peace whilst the Israeli government expand, populate and control land using an army to subjate people.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
I agree with a couple of additional points. There will also never be peace while terrorist organisations like Hamas deny Israel's right to exist, and they continue to use the Palestinian people as cannon fodder.It ceased to exist !!! No come on, please tell me someone has hacked your account. The British govt. and others may have made decisions but there were people living there, they had done for centuries. If we accept Israeli Jews have a right to live there so do others. During the first World War the UK govt. promised Palestinians self control IF they helped the British against the Ottoman empire. The UK govt. lied and renaged on that promise.
There will never be peace whilst the Israeli government expand, populate and control land using an army to subjate people.
I've said it before but it's the minority of extremists on both sides who are at the core of the problem.